Crying it out

[celeryeater]

Is there actually any evidence that letting a baby 'cry it out' is damaging to them? I mean so long as you know they are fed, dry, not ill etc?
9mo still waking up every 1-3 hours every night. I have tried pick up put down /coming in and out every 10 minutes (this just seemed to wind her up more) /cutting down on feeds. She just screams as soon as she wakes up even if she's in bed next to me. She won't take a dummy. I feel like the only way is to just leave her and not go in at all but I really don't want to do that, but I might need to.
Please don't tell me how it's normal for a baby to wake up lots and they will grow out of it - this is like saying the effect it has ob me is nothing and I just need to suck it up and let it ruin my life, relationship, health, mental state.

I do get that totally. And I'm sorry that happened to you. I guess I'm reacting because there's been so many times I've felt judged and a failure for not managing to make my DD take a dummy, for feeding to sleep, for letting her take naps on me for the first 10 months. You're so right and as I said, I totally accept that my view of dummies is my issue. Just a bit of a sore point here! And seeing some of the blunt (albeit well meant) comments on here meant I did react.

End of the day, as long as no one's locking their baby in a box then I think we're all amazing parents...

But I think what purpleboa means is that some babies wake up for their spat out dummy numerous times in the night (one OP on here I am sure said they replaced the dummy 70 odd times?!) which can be torturous on the parents to be doing for months on end. Other babies may only spit out and wake up a couple of times, which by comparison, is much easier to cope with and'suck up' until baby has learnt to reinsert it themselves. So it basically depends on the baby. I am of the opinion that if they worked as well for everyone as they clearly have done for some posters on here, all parents would be using them and singing their praises, which clearly is not the case. I also know many families who did not find it easy to wean off the dummy.

As for the 'suck it up' point of view...well...I agree with you purpleboa. I think that if a mother is in such distress because of lack of sleep, telling her to 'suck it up' isn't helpful to her or her baby, who needs a happy and healthy mother to thrive. I respect individuals' decisions on whether to do cc/CIO/suck it up, but I do think that if a mother is being affected mentally and wants to try sleep training, surely it is better to do so than continue on in mental distress, which has been proven to negatively impact the baby (I am NOT talking about mothers who cannot/will not sleep train here)??? Just a few thoughts on this very interesting thread x

Oh and I had it drummed into me at the breastfeeding workshop and by my HV about 'nipple confusion' which freaked me out because I so wanted to continue breastfeeding. Which meant I was reluctant about dummies and didn't introduce a bottle till it was too late and she never took one. If I'm lucky enough to have another DC, breastfeeding or not I'll be trying dummies and bottles right from the start!

Dummies are amazing. They really, really are. And I have had zero stress or issue getting rid of dummy with three children.

I know some babies won't have a dummy.
I know some leave it too late to try one.
I know some who don't realise that not all babies take to a dummy naturally, but that doesn't mean it is rejected.

And I know a large number of mums are unwilling to try because of some perceived snobbishness about dummies. I aim to dispel that. I will not apologise for that. I'm no wallflower on this subject.

what got me through was the hand holding, the kindness I did find...

Then why not stick around and offer that?

It's needed in the sleep board. I'm all for practical suggestions, which is also needed. I can tell when a poster is just after a hand hold, I back off such a thread. Simply because I'm not that kind of person. I know lots of others are here to offer that hand hold though, so such posters do find their support.

I offer practical suggestions when they are asked for. I never say anything will "definately, definately work". I don't think I have ever read that on the Sleep board in the last 3 years.

This issue is, indeed, yours Purpleboa.

Thank you user. Yes that's what I meant. But I'm not gonna lie, I have ingrained perceptions of the older child with the perpetual dummy in mouth which were hard to shake. I've learnt many important lessons since though! Nevertheless, yes, I think sometimes dummies cab create more problems than they can solve. And as you say, if they work for you then that's amazing. But they didn't for me, and quite frankly not bloody much did really, just time, stopping breastfeeding and routine.

And yes, sleep deprivation sent me a bit mental. I was scared for my state of mind and it's had a big effect on me and DH. Thank goodness, we're stronger than that and we're getting through it. But we'd really love a second child, and lack of energy to do anything about that (plus separate bedrooms for a long time due to co sleeping) isn't exactly conducive to that! So yes, it's tough. And because I didn't have many friends who were going through it IRL (the mums group I was part of ALL had good sleepers, what are the odds ) I came on here for support and as I say, bit of understanding.

Think I cross posted with purple boa and Persis. Lovely post there persis about not judging .

However, I introduced my ebf baby a bottle and dummy with DC1 at five weeks and I believe they were indeed a victim of nipple confusion and bad habits. Sorry . Again, all babies are different and many have different experiences.

I never managed to get 1 of mine to take a dummy. They just wouldn't.

I have ingrained perceptions of the older child with the perpetual dummy in mouth

I have the same perceptions. I continue to silently judge when I see a toddler with a dummy in their mouth.

By the time my child can walk, dummy means sleep and the only time baby has a dummy is in the cot for the 10 minutes it takes to go to sleep.

Fair enough Fate. I appreciate that you offer a lot of practical support and advice to struggling mums, and that's a good thing. But I do find your style somewhat abrasive at times. I don't think I'm the only to feel like that. And I also feel you are missing my point re dummies. I've been honest enough to admit my feelings and issues. Telling me they are amazing isn't really helping. It's a moot point for me for reasons mentioned above.

I have given much support on here in the past, but I found that when I was on here I was getting annoyed by some posters, and it was bringing up a lot of negativity for me. My DD might be 19 months but sleep is still something we do struggle with, and it all feels a bit...raw, still.

I'm sorry OP for detailing your thread. I just wanted to make a stand against some of the things that were said earlier, although you've been given a lot of good advice. Until now, I've never waded in to criticise people, only if I thought an injustice was being done. And I think it's possible to give advice without being harsh with it.

Sorry again, I think I need to take some time out. for you all.

Would she sleep with you? I am forever thankful to the health visitor who said to me that I wasn't in a position to tackle sleep as I was too tired and to try bringing baby into bed (following co sleeping rules -my DP slept elsewhere) for a few days whilst I caught up. I learnt two things...After 4 nights sleep I was a better person and that my baby could sleep through without food or particulary waking when he had comfort so the key was helping him find comfort his room. To begin with it was me sitting with him but gradually it became a particular teddy. It took a while but I must say he is 9 and has good sleep habits.

It didn't take until he was 9 !!! I just meant it was slow but lasting

one more post then I'll go just to echo that about co sleeping. From 7 months till about 13 months, it was the only thing that worked for us. Meant I could go back to work and actually function (mostly). Again, not for everyone but it really helped us and I kinda miss it

But I do find your style somewhat abrasive at times

I know that. It's not personal it is just... well it's just me.

I'm a solutions person. I'm not much of a huggy, touchy, feely person. So what? Does it matter? Do you expect me to sit wuietly in a corner (on a subject I have a fairly large range of experience in) because I have a matter-of-fact, say it like it is tone?

I won't be apologising for being the kind of person I am.

I will offer practical, to the point, solutions or suggestions when asked. I will give these solutions in a largely unemotional way. If a poster needs a hand hold,

We did all the fluffy cuddly stuff with our first who in retrospect led us a merry dance around sleeping. Lying beside her for an hour or two, up and down all night, a truly nightmare sleeper.
The next five I did the 'put them to bed and let them go to sleep by themselves' sleep training - most of them screamed, shouted, vomited, sweated, raged for two nights, were about an hour on third night and straight to sleep on fourth. Our second only took two nights.
Once they'd learned to do that consistently we could then afford to build in a longer, more relaxed story and cuddle time.
Interestingly the one we mollycoddled is still the worst sleeper as an adult and most likely to wake in night.

... If a poster needs a hand hold, I'll do my best. But ultimately ill leave that to someone else.

You may think I'm abrasive. I know I'm not and I don't care what you think purple.

Sorry Fate, you are right. I absolutely respect that and thanks for saying it. I'm not in the best place with sleep, and like I say, a lot of it is still emotional for me and I still remember the HELL of it all. I just didn't want the OP to feel worse, but actually, she'll be more likely to take on the practical advice. Hope we're good (offering cake as an olive branch since no olive branch icon exists)

Cake is good. Cake and tea

And the rest of you...move along, nothing to see here (OP please do come back, I'm buggering off to deal with my now crying toddler who's not loving her new pillow...)

Awwwww hugs to you all. I don't normally pile in on sleep threads because WTF do I know?? But I definitely know that bad sleepers make cranky mummies.

OP (hello?!) if I can help, I will.

Purple....I know what you mean about it being raw. You sound awesome. My baby is intrinsically a much better sleeper than either of the girls...so there's hope!

FATE.....I (personally!) love your style on the sleep boards. I sadly did not have MN in my life when the girls were little but I def did with the baby and i quoted you verbatim at my MIL one time when we were disagreeing about something. Probably dummies!!

And the final point from me....my girls are now old enough to actually make me cakes!! That is how I know I'm a winner!!!

Persis, you clearly know quite a lot! I think we all have wisdom to share.

For my part, I'm ashamed I reacted with my emotions here (yes the phrase 'keyboard warrior' does spring to mind, you can see why Internet trolling is so prolific 😂). I do stand by a softer approach but that's just me. Fate is doing incredibly valuable work here and I bet she's transformed things for many. It's made me realise I can do my bit too, and hopefully help others out, even just with cake and sympathy.

Oh wow now my DD making me cake is a stage I can look forward to! Good work!

I haven't disappeared, just didn't see all the updates until just now!
Firstly, I have no issue with dummies - if DD would take one I would definitely go with that and deal with getting rid of it at a later date once I had caught up on my sleep. Unfortunately she won't though so oh well. Cosleeping is another thing I have tried but she still wakes up every two hours even when she is right next to me! Also it drives me nuts having to lay on one side to keep her safe and I worry about her rolling out if she woke up and I didn't because I was too exhausted. I'm much happier with the set up we have at the moment where she is in her own bedroom even if it means I have to get up every time to settle her.
As for the whole 'suck it up' comment, I think Fate just used that turn of phrase because I did in my OP 'please don't tell me to just suck it up'. I did find it slightly jarring - there are plenty of times I've had to realise I'm a parent in the last 9 months and put myself second. Often to my own misfortune and have suffered health wise because of it (infected stitches, mastitis 3 times etc) if it was a matter of sucking it up and being a martyr you can bet I would. But how can I suck up sleep deprivation? Would you say the same thing if I was to accidentally drop my daughter, or fell asleep feeding her, or how about if I had an accident driving whilst she was in the car? I wish it was that simple.
I have met people like Fate before though and totally get that there would be no hand holding from her. I am appreciative though that she was taking the time out to share her experiences and advice with me and trying to help. Ultimately it's not her problem I am tired! As has been said, all babies are different and what works for one won't for another. I still haven't brought myself to be able to let her CIO and I don't think I will! She is doing slightly longer stretches at the moment at least once a night (2 1/2 - 4 hours) which doesn't sound like a lot but actually is very good for me. Thanks everyone for the advice and support on this thread.

Hi

Can I ask how her daytime naps are? How often does she nap and for how long? Are her daytime naps consistent most days?

I'm wondering if she is either too tired or too awake? My DS was doing the same so I ensured we stick rigidly to his bedtime routine and I bought forward his naps and ensure he doesn't nap too late in the afternoon x

She will only nap in the buggy when I walk the dog so about an hour sometime in the afternoon. The last few days she has fallen asleep in my arms after her morning feed about 11am but will wake up within about 20-30 minutes. I don't know how I can make her nap in the day... Walk about more?!

Okay so every baby is different but general guidelines suggest at this age they will need an AM and PM nap. My DS is the same age and he naps between 10-11am for 30mins- 60mins and again around 2-3 for 60 mins. I try my hardest to ensure he doesn't nap past 4pm. Doing this has made a massive difference to his sleeping and he generally sleeps through now. A month ago he napped sporadically and often after 4pm and woke every few hours at night. After doing some research I realised he was probably not getting enough quality sleep in the day and when he mwas it was too late in the day so he wasn't tired enough for bedtime.

I also have a rule now that after his bedtime routine that we don't take him back downstairs. So after his dinner around half 4/5 he plays and we have lots of interaction using toys and sensory objects, learning something new and reading etc then bath at 7, massage and books then lights off and a bottle with only a nightlight on. He then goes straight to sleep pretty much. He used to stay up after his bottle n fight sleep for ages. ATM I'm working on putting him in his cot when he's more awake each week as he used to be put down once asleep. This will help him to self sooth.

If she struggles to nap in the day I'd repeat the bedtime routine in the day. So at a certain time (2-3 hours after they wake up in the morning is usually when they need a nap) do a book or two in a darkish room, no tv/ toys around and pat/ rub her tummy offer a little feed and hopefully she'll be tired enough to sleep. I also stroke DS's face on from the top of his nose to He top gently. It may take her time to get used to it but it will work. If you're out and about it should be easier for her to sleep when tired if in the car or pram.

Also during the night I never offer a feed babies don't need feeding at this age generally in the night and will be having it out of habit and for comfort. If you genuinely think it's hunger maybe she's ready for a bigger portion at dinner or a healthy snack before bed if her dinner is early. It sounds like your DD is like how my DS was though he found it hard to re-settle when he woke up. I don't pick him up unless he's distressed/crying and don't speak to him during the night unless he's very upset and even then it'll be a soft 'shh it's okay sleep time.' I usually give him a dummy and rub his tummy gently if he's v unsettled. It took a long time to keep doing this and stop letting him come in to my bed etc but now he knows if he wakes up he can go back to sleep on his own.

I hope this helps it certainly did with my DS. I'm no expert just did some research and decided to make some changes and luckily it paid off. Hope this helps xxx on another note I contacted my HV who arranged to pop to see me to discuss my plans with changing his routine and she helped me massively maybe putting a call in to yours would help xxxx

But how can I suck up sleep deprivation?

I have been letting this whole thing abput being offended at the phrase "suck it up" slide. I figured someone would notice the fact that the OP was the person who said it.

The quote being referred to went:

Me: *[Very long, detailed and (I think) helpful explanation on what OP asked - the outcomes and experiences of CIO.] Followed right at the end with:

OP quote: "I just need to suck it up and let it ruin my life, relationship, health, mental state"

My reply: "Get a grip. Your a parent now. It's hard graft. I get that you're allowed to wallow at 5am when you are knackered when you write this. But there are lots of other ways you can solve this."

People may not like the "get a grip". But I stand by it. In context the op was catastrophising. I assume because it was 05:22am and she was (understandably) knackered.

I will reitterate:

There are lots of other ways OP can solve this. Not doing Cry It Out will not lead to it ruining her life, relationship, health, mental state (paraphrasing direct quotes)