Crying it out

[celeryeater]

Is there actually any evidence that letting a baby 'cry it out' is damaging to them? I mean so long as you know they are fed, dry, not ill etc?
9mo still waking up every 1-3 hours every night. I have tried pick up put down /coming in and out every 10 minutes (this just seemed to wind her up more) /cutting down on feeds. She just screams as soon as she wakes up even if she's in bed next to me. She won't take a dummy. I feel like the only way is to just leave her and not go in at all but I really don't want to do that, but I might need to.
Please don't tell me how it's normal for a baby to wake up lots and they will grow out of it - this is like saying the effect it has ob me is nothing and I just need to suck it up and let it ruin my life, relationship, health, mental state.

Ok thanks both for excellent advise/tips as always 👍 You really think he is hungry every hour through the night though? Or do you think he's waking every hour with the dummy because he is hungry??...and hopefully if I feed him he will not wake the next hour I guess?!! It's not a prob...totally expect to feed through the night at his age and especially as he is EBF...just don't want to end up with him relying on me and reverting back to the feeding to sleep situation again like I was in the beginning. It's so nice now DH can settle baby to bed, instead of me having to breast feed to sleep... I can now read stories to toddler, put her to bed etc some nights...we basically alternate which is perfect 😊

Frankly if he can go 2 hrs during the day without a feed he can certainly go 2 hours without a feed during the night.

You will sense yourself whether he's ravenous or just snacking in order to fall asleep.

I had a baby at 4 months who woke hourly. At first I was feeding every time. Then realised it was madness and resolved to only feed if two hours had passed and resettle the rest of the time but it's entirely up to you. I know full well how easy it is to just plug the baby on every single time and how much you dread having to wake up properly to resettle without the boob.

Yea that makes sense thanks...think I'll aim for 2hourly feeding and any less I'll pop dummy back in. I just assumed he wasn't hungry as the second that dummy is back in he's asleep!...no shushing, patting or having to pick him up etc. Presumably if he was hungry he wouldnt settle back to sleep...but could be wrong and maybe that's why he's waking hourly? I also have a snuzpod so just literally lean across and pop dummy in 😉
...DH is currently on 3rd dummy run of the evening 😩...I only fed him and put him to bed 20mins ago....sigh...

I will try and pick up some larger dummies - thanks for the tip! I hope it works

I just assumed he wasn't hungry as the second that dummy is back in he's asleep

He's not hungry then. Unless yes awake again within half an hour in which case he probably was.

This introduces another point though - light sleeping, as a seperate issue to method of going to sleep or hunger.

Good sleep = Better sleep.

A baby getting loads of sleep (far more than you would expect) is easier to get to sleep, sleeps more deeply when asleep and so wakes less often. So sleep is better quality in an upward spiral.

Poor sleep = Worse sleep

The opposite is true. A baby who is not getting enough sleep find getting to sleep more difficult. Once asleep they are light sleeper and do wake easily - from external stimuli or when moving between sleep cycles. So the net result is the poor sleeper's sleep gets worse and worse quality in a downward spiral.

The way to overcome over tiredness is to really focus on more sleep, less awake time, more frequent naps, resetting to extend naps. The more sleep you can get baby having, over 24 hours, the easier they'll be with regards to sleep.

I'm reading this thread with interest. I have just tonight started with my 5 month old putting her awake in the cot at bedtime and leaning over to cuddle to sleep. She properly cried for 40 minutes and I felt awful but had been waking up to 20 times a night so she definitely needs to learn to fall asleep a bit more independently.
I am anti cio too and have ended up with a three year old who still needs to hold my hair to fall asleep at bedtime! I'm hoping what I'm doing with the 5 month old now is a happy medium i.e. Not too cruel but equally going to teach her to fall asleep and stay asleep.
Fate - I love reading all your advice on these boards but do you not think that it could be the case that your oldest was always going to be an insecure/ needing lots of human contact type of person and that led to her being a bad sleeper which led to you doing cio rather than the cio being the cause of all you described? I only say that because my toddler is still very insecure at bedtime, would freak out if I left the room, still loves to be cuddled up in my bed. If I had sleep trained him I could easily blame the sleep training for this but in reality he has never been left to cry by himself, he is just a child who needs a lot of contact and cuddles still.

Thanks Fate...I think you've probably hit the nail on the head then as DS naps are terrible really 😕 He only ever sleeps 1 cycle...so 30/40mins...despite dummy. Falls to sleep quite easily too and is quite a chilled out baby but just doesn't seem to be able to transition into next sleep cycle. I do try to limit awake time to 1.5-2 hours max however the short naps are likely the problem then as he never gets into a deep sleep 😞

I've often pondered that about my eldest Inthehighcastle. It's a chicken and egg situation. There is no reasonable way of knowing.

I also wonder how much we perpetuate the way she is at night. I think of her as a "poor sleeper" and so never push the issue of her light being on all night, or suggest she switches her fan off (when it's freezing at night, she's in a fluffy onesie yet still has the fan pointing at her head on full blast). With my other children, I suggested and pushed them towards more adult sleeping (light off, door shut, quiet darkness) when they were old enough. I never pushed my eldest because I never thought her ready. If I had have done, she might have been different now.

I've also pondered the idea that I like her coming for a cuddle in the night. Especially nowadays because it's a rarity and I am acutely conscious that she's on the cusp of growing out of this forever. I would imagine that has some bearing on her visits to our room too.

9 months is a good time to do some sleep training. Make sure there are no reasons - teething, illness etc- and make sure fed well during the day. Start off with making sure similar routine and timings at bedtime and that naps are in place so baby isn't overtired . Then after a few days of this make sure you leave the baby awake on their own to settle to sleep. If you're there at all they will be confused when they wake later and you're not there. You can do this gradually and build up to it depending on how you feel. You'll prob find night wakings lessen quickly as they'll know how to self settle .
It's hard but so worth it for both of you to get a good nights sleep. good sleep is essential to you and your baby's health. That's a fact. The scaremongering about sleep training is just that
Go for it it will take a few days but you'll see improvements soon

Tabitha1983 - 90 minutes is too long awake time when having short daytime naps. He's over tired.

At 4 months my youngest was sleeping about 40 minutes for daytime naps (give take). Awake time was never over 1 hour. Ususlly I'd start getting her to sleep after 40 minutes awake. That allows for up to 20 minutes to get to sleep. Ususlly she'd be asleep within 10 minutes in the bouncy chair with the dummy.

Oh ok really! Wow! I'll aim for less awake time tomorrow then...and continue to work on longer naps obviously but that's proving very difficult...and frustrating!! Thanks for all your help x

Ok I actually disagree there. I think 90 mins awake is fine for a four month old. Just no longer.

I also think it's pretty normal to only do one sleep cycle for a BF baby. I wouldn't sweat that just yet. It just means more naps that's all.

Elspeth - how long between naps do you think I should be aiming for? She will only nap in the buggy, should I just keep taking her out?

Fate's story of her eldest is very apt as I was exactly like her daughter. This is no word of a lie, I didn't sleep through the night until I was an adult in my early 20s. My parents never taught me how to sleep they simply shut the door and let me get on with it..I never disturbed them just used to play with my toys and read until the early hours. Her advice is sound, try and teach your baby how to relax in their bed. I know it's a horrible time but it will get better, my baby was terrible for weeks as his top teeth were coming through and he was learning to crawl. Hope things get better, don't want to depress you but I do think Fate can help you good luck!

My DP tried to settle her in the cot without picking her up for the first wake up last night, just by resting his hand on her, then by rubbing her back. She went INSANE! I've never heard her make those noises before. Screaming repeatedly WAH WAH WAH over and over in fast succession. After about an hour he got me to come and calm her down with a breastfeed during which her chest was still heaving and she couldn't control her sobs. Surely that is just as bad as letting her CIO if she's going to upset herself so much. I also sent my partner at the next wake up at 1.30 am where he spent an hour getting her to sleep (I think he might have picked her up this time) only for her to wake up and start crying again as soon as he got back in to bed. I went fed and settled her and she slept from 3-6.40! That is totally unheard of. Usually after 3 I can only get her to do 1-1/2 hours. I don't know if it was a complete fluke or she couldn't be bothered with DP again or if it's because we put an extra pyjama top on because we suspected she could be getting cold. Either way we will try to recreate everything again tonight.

This is the first time since she was a few weeks old that DP has helped throughout the night. Basically because I have been breastfeeding he has slept on the sofa for 9 months! My attempts to get him back in the bedroom didn't work because of various reasons like him having to get up for work, he would take baby in the morning so no point in us both being tied, breastfeeding etc. Then he claimed the bedroom was too dusty and made him cough so I spent 4 hours yesterday dusting and cleaning absolutely everything he had no excuses last night and we both had OK sleep! God I hope that is what makes the difference. Either way it is nice to have a bit of support in the long lonely hours of the night.

LalaLeona said "This is no word of a lie, I didn't sleep through the night until I was an adult in my early 20s. My parents never taught me how to sleep they simply shut the door and let me get on with it".

My parents did the same thing. I love my sleep, sleep well, and never visited my parents in the night. I slept through well before one year old. Just pointing out that it depends a lot on personality/temperament etc

Am I the only one who finds some of the replies in this thread rather bullying in tone? Do none of you remember just how bloody awful sleep deprivation is? Telling the OP to 'suck it up' and 'you're a parent now' is harsh, unnecessary and a little cruel - especially when posters are admitting they've made mistakes too in the past.

Here's the facts, as I've learnt:

EVERY BABY IS DIFFERENT. Fate will talk about the necessity of taking a dummy. Sure, if a. Your DC will take one (mine didn't) and 2. You don't developing a habit that's going to be very hard to break.

Sleep deprivation is a killer. It really is, and if it goes on for a few months it's awful. You feel self pitying, hard done by and angry. I was expecting sleepless nights as a parent. What I was not expecting was this sheer torture. Absolutely no one can prepare you for it. For us, we had well over a year of it and undeniably, it has taken its toll on my physical and mental state.

I spent hours and days trawling the sleep forum for help and advice in the bad days. And what did I find most helpful? Not the advice, not the bossiness and sometimes rudeness of some and not the long posts that described in detail a technique that 'definitely, definitely works'. So when it doesn't, you feel like a failure. No, what got me through was the hand holding, the kindness I did find, and someone just saying 'hey, you're not alone. You got this. It's OK to feel this way.'

And I didn't wallow. I persevered, got my DD into a routine...and now she is so much better. OK still a way to go and teething messes things up, but she can sleep through and can self settle. And I've learnt that I am so much stronger than I ever believed.

Sorry for the long ranty post! I just didn't want to berate you OP. We considered controlled crying many a time, usually lying there tense at 4am and desperately wondering what to do. We tried it twice - it was way too distressing for all of us, so never again. But I don't judge those who are considering it. Like I say, every baby and parent is different.

Good luck OP! takes deep breath and remembers why I don't come on here anymore

Please can I just take a little bit of issue with dummies being a hard habit to break? All 3 of mine had them. Only in bed and car if I wanted them to sleep. Their teeth are perfect, their speech is very advanced. I sleep trained them with minimal crying. When they were little, when I had to leave them there was always something to comfort them. I think they are amazing.

When I wanted them to give them up (we went cold turkey with everyone at once so the girls were nearly 3 and the baby was about 1), we just collected them up, left them out for the "dummy fairy" and in the morning there were 2 new bikes. I think DT1 asked for it once or twice the first nap but no distress a cuddle couldn't help with. The baby was a bit trickier (ideally would have left his for a bit longer) so maybe a week of cuddling to sleep and a couple of night wakes needing a back rub.

Compare that to the millions of hours of crying they saved me. Honestly, I am EVANGELICAL about them.

You have to do what's right for your family. But please don't avoid the magic of dummies because you are worried about giving them up. It's easy!!!

Oh, and my baby wasn't all that interested to start with. In the end he had them gently warmed in the steriliser - I think that makes them a bit softer maybe? Also all of mine were EBF - I don't believe in nipple confusion either.

Persis, good point. I do realise that. I think it's just sometimes I get a bit of sick of having dummies pushed down my throat (not literally!) as a magical solution. They are one solution that work well for many. But I also see parents ramming them into little mouths at the slightest cry, so I do take issue with that. However, I do accept the issue is mine. Just don't want people feeling bad if they choose not to go with them, or their babies won't take to them.

Like your dummy fairy thing too!

Do you have a camera monitor? I wasn't mega keen on getting on but have found it quite useful for knowing when to go in or not. Ours will often cry when she turns over, but she's asleep! I was going in and waking her up, so it's turned out to be quite handy in knowing if she needs help or not.

I know what you mean about people ramming them in their kids mouths....but....:in my very early days with the twins when I was on my knees with misery and DH was working away I was desperately trying to buy some nappies or something and the girls were wailing away in the pushchair, probably ready for some extended tandem breastfeeding which isn't something I really fancied in Tesco cafe. So I popped in some dummies and an old woman basically said to me what you've just said. And I think I held it together til I got to the checkout, then on the way home I was crying so much a complete random stopped her car and came to give me a hug.

I think my point is....you don't know what's going on in people's lives. Some people find parenting easy, some don't. Some have PND. Some have cancer. Some have just lost someone they love. Most people want the best for their kids, and care about them and their happiness more than some random old witch in Tesco.

So I make it an absolute rule never to judge other people's parenting. OP, if you have to let your baby CIO, then do it. You care about your baby more than any of us, and if it's what you have to do, then it is. I can try and help and support through some less extreme methods if you like (or someone who knows what they are talking about might which would be better!) but you won't get any judging here.

Well said Persis.