Is it Ok to leave 4 month old to cry to sleep?

[Cinnamon84]

I've been struggling for ages to get my 4 month ds to nap in the day. (Have written loads of other posts about this)
At night he is rocked to sleep, put in bednest then after breastfeeding he lies down next to me. He sleeps from about 7.30 pm - 7.30am, feeds every 3-5 hours but goes straight back down. This is fine and there doesn't appear to be problems here.

In the day I've tried feeding him, going out in pram, bouncy chair, swaddling, white noise, sitting still, dummy... I just can't get him to nap so I normally resort to holding him and bouncing on yoga ball (normally figits and cries but eventually sleeps) and then lay him down on the bed til he wakes (normally after 45 mins) or I take him out in the sling (yesterday I walked for over 2.5 hours and he slept for 1).

Today he woke at 7.55 and between then and 3 I managed to get him to sleep twice and both times woke after 10 mins. A community nurse came over to try and help and while she was here he constantly tried to fight sleep. She instructed me to put him in his gro bag and leave him in his cot- his shouts and cries eventually turned into full blown screaming, bright red face and sounded like he was choking.

She said babies need to learn to self soothe, which I agree with and that I need to leave him to cry. This doesn't seem right to me but I don't know if I'm being too soft? I know I need to break the cycle of soothing him to sleep but I don't want him to feel like he's ignored when he cries.

I've just started feeding him and he has finally dropped off!

Trouble is your HV will have her own opinion on how to get babies to sleep but it doesn't mean it's right for you. Accepted controlled crying wisdom is that you let them cry a bit but any screaming is when you go in and pick them up, calm them, then start again. Eventually they 'learn' to just go to sleep. So they say. I failed at the first hurdle.

Thanks, I really don't feel comfortable letting him scream and wish I hadn't done that now- the first 2 times he stopped as soon as I picked him up so he obviously needed some comfort.

The day she came he slept a total of 25 mins plus dozing while feeding between 8am and about 7.30pm! I just really want to break this cycle as his day sleep seems to be getting worse each week.

For some reason in the day I can never feed to sleep- he dozes while feeding but wakes up either once he's done or a couple of minutes after.

This is wear people's views of sleeping through differ, I was initially amazed how was sleeping through 12 hours a night but clearly you feed him. Sleeping through to me means sleeping through solidly.

Any way back to the OP- he's tiny still,just get through the day anyway you can

** where not wear - stupid phone!

Yeah I definitely wouldn't claim he's sleeping through the night! To be honest I'm not expecting that for a while and don't mind waking every 3 or so hours as long as he goes straight back to sleep afterwards

Cinnamon I wish I could offer advice but I'm in the same boat. DS is 3 months, takes ages to feed to sleep at night but overnight resettles reasonably easily. During the day however, it's hopeless. Yesterday I think I got 2 20 minute naps out of him, one where he fed to sleep on my lap and woke up as soon as I tried to move him and one after and good 15 minutes of screaming in the car (I hate the bloody car at the moment), he woke when I tried to get the car seat out - I should have just sat in the car on the drive!
I have absolutely no idea how to get him to nap without feeding him to sleep or walking him in the buggy, which is a total nightmare for actually being able to get anything done.

No, it's not ok. And you should make a formal complaint about the community nursery nurse. The only time it's OK to leave baby screaming is if you've hit your limit and need a breather.

I think I nearly always fed to sleep (if baby wasn't in the car.) Even in the sling.

With my first I'd sometimes go and lie on the bed after lunch, feed, then have a nap too or read a book :)

It's worth knowing that even Ferber didn't advocate crying it out, and said 6 months was the earliest time that you should try controlled crying. So your community nurse is going beyond what even strong advocates of sleep training recommend.

I think your instinct that you don't want to break his trust is absolutely right. If you want to gently introduce more independent sleep habits then the No Cry Sleep Solution or the Gentle Sleep Book can give you some tips to work at your baby's pace.

I agonised over and over with DD1 for all the same reasons as you but there's really no need to. Just let baby tell you what he wants and if you respond as you have been doing he will feel so secure that eventually he will be an extremely settled and content baby. Your baby and your instincts are telling you what's right, trust that and you'll both be fine. In the meantime if he only naps 10 mins etc then so be it. I know it's frustrating because you know he needs more and the lack of sleep makes them cranky but it's all part of their development. I hold DD2 much more than I should or really need to but I'm soaking up every ounce of her as this first year flies and is so precious. I'm back at work in 6 weeks and I'm yet to get her to take a bottle but I'm not stressing, everything will work itself out eventually.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sarahockwell-smith.com/2014/06/30/self-settling-what-really-happens-when-you-teach-a-baby-to-self-soothe-to-sleep/amp/?client=safari

OP This is interesting to read. Obviously others will have different opinions but it may help you to feel that you don't have to go against your instincts trying to 'teach' your baby to do something.

Do what you feel is right for you and your baby, not what you feel you 'should' be doing.

4 months is a really hard age, it won't last long and you'll probably find he settles into better naps on his own anyway in a few more weeeks.

Thanks everyone. He's had his jabs today and is quite drowsy from them and actually wants to sleep so taking this opportunity to feed/cuddle and let him nap on me all day.

The more I think about her I actually feel a bit pissed off- she made me feel like a naive first time mum (I know I am but I'm trying to just go with it and learn as we go along)- she also told me he's probably held too much and he's too used to having me around all the time, and running to him every time he cries- isn't that what young babies need?!

I love it when that Sarah OS link is posted.

I love the article, as not sensationalist but completely true. What I love most though is that the entire point of that article could be summed up as:

"GIVE YOUR BABY A DUMMY FROM BIRTH TO SCHOOL AGE. BECUASE THEY WILL NEED COMFORT"

Only that wouldn't sell Sarah OC many books

Jesus, she gave you HORRIBLE advice. No one, even sleep trainers, advises leaving a baby that young try cry harder and harder without soothing, until they make themselves sick. That's a disgusting thing to do to a baby.

OP your instincts are bang on and it sounds like your baby is getting enough sleep doing things your way. My boy didn't sleep more than about 10 hours total in 24 until he was about 6 months, and had to be held and rocked or fed to sleep same as yours, and is "the happiest and easiest baby I have ever had" in his childminders words. Some babies sleep more than others, and that is JUST FINE.

I wouldn't think that's right, not letting him get into the state you described. My lo self settled from birth, and slept through from 3 months.
While most ding agree with it, we always stuck to the 10 minute rule did every sleep. He always slept upstairs, even during the day. He was formula fed. So he would have his bottle, then be taken up and put him the crib or later cot. We would then leave him for 10 minutes. Within this time, he would usually settle by himself. Yes he would cry for a few minutes but then he would drop off. If he wasn't asleep within 10 minutes we would go back up to him, as it meant there was something wrong (in pain with teeth or something). We always watched him on the video monitor, and if he was crying too much to the point of what you describe we would certainly not have left him alone.
As I said I know plenty will say I'm wrong to let him cry on his own, but he's always self settled, never had to be cuddled or fed to sleep, and never needed a comforter or light or definitely no dummy as I'm not a fan at all. Even now, when he has his daytime sleeps (he doesn't have milk in the day) he settles down on his own. It works for us. And that's all that matters

She is a bit sensationalist.

It's a shame because the basic pints Sarah IS is making are sound - about unrealistic expectations, that babies need some form of comfort to go to sleep, that this continues until school age.

All this is true. But what she fails yo mention is that the comfort can be independant and doesn't have to involve a parent (for example dummy, special toy, blankie, snuggly). But that wouldn't sell many books.

If she was less sensationalist and dropped the bit about the not boy from the NSPCC advert ("Miles is a quiet baby...") I would link to thw article much more. It has some decent science in there.

I should have added that my DD started to self settle the very day she finally took a dummy (about 4.5 months). We tried a dummy daily but she couldn't get the hang of it until that stage. Now she largely nods off easily with her dummy and rabbit comforter. I know it's hard when you just want a bit of time to yourself but they do get there.

Both of mine (now 8months and 2 years) wouldn't sleep through the day - apart from quick 10mins here and there) until they were 6 months old. Then they miraculously started having 2 solid hours in the afternoon.
I think with mine it was their age. Although with my first I was a bit miffed and tried all sorts. They got progressively tired and grisly as the day went on!
At this moment they are both happily napping ahhhh.
I hope you might find the same thing?

DD2 won't take to a dummy, she's been offered on several occasions and I give her one to hold/ play with/ chew but she just doesn't understand what to do with it. DD1 had one (eventually) but I was a bit late getting it off her (3 and a 1/2) thankfully her open bite corrected itself but it was a struggle getting it off her at that age.
That woman gave you terrible advice and even though you are a new mum, you're not naive. You know exactly what your baby needs and you're doing it. With DD1 I would stress and agonise over so many different things and then one day she just did it, basically I made problems where there weren't any and worried for nothing - I like to make life difficult for myself .

I'm a bit at those suggesting OPs baby sleeps 12 hours at night so she should be grateful. Baby wakes every 3-5 hrs for food so doesn't sleep through? My DS1 did this, i.e. was 'down' for around 10-12 hrs and quick to settle after feeds but the night waking almost killed me as I struggle to get back to sleep once awake.
OP I'd wait until 6 months to sleep train. Until then just take babies lead during the day. It's all a phase...DS1 was always a great napper in the day but was about 5 months old until he slept more than 45 mins at a time. Now he's 2 and I sometimes have to wake him up...he'd do 3 hours nap if I let him.

I have a four month old who also doesn't like napping during the day much! I usually feed him to sleep or he sometimes falls asleep in the car. I wouldn't leave him to cry although there have been occasions where I have had to leave him crying because I've had to deal with my older DD and sometimes I come back and he has fallen asleep but I don't like it. Four months is so tiny. I just go with the flow to be honest, if he isn't crying but isn't sleeping I just let him be! If he is crying I feed him and he does usually nod off but sometimes only for twenty minutes.

What I'm trying to say is you are not alone and it's all completely normal and don't leave him to cry!

Terrible, sad, horrible advice from a community nurse. God, I hate to think of how many babies are being left to scream because of her.

OP, your baby is a mammal. See some attached photos of how ALL mammal babies are designed to sleep. Human babies are born the least mature of all mammals yet we think they have a 'problem' when they can't sleep independently of us as tiny babies and self settle? What the fuck?

A baby who needs feeding and cuddles to go to sleep and stay asleep is not a baby with a sleep problem. It is a perfectly normal baby.

PS I'd be reporting her too.

PPS Your baby does not have a nap problem, and other posters who have said their babies are the same, your babies do not have problems either. They just don't want to nap off you, as virtually all of you have said that they wake when you move them off you. So park up and get some box sets lined up. Just let them nap on you. They'll nap well and you'll have a much more put-downable baby when they're awake and you can go to the loo then.

I remember you replied on a thread I wrote a month ago. Our situations were identical. On my thread someone suggested reflux, and I believe that was the issue. Since my DS has been on ranitidine he had just magically started napping. Even at home in his cot - something I never thought would happen. Although now the issue is with my sons nighttime sleep - he now wakes more frequently, but like you he is so easy to resettle, he goes straight back down after a 10-15 min feed.