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The Controlled Crying Support Thread

118 replies

DetentionGrrrl · 15/02/2007 08:02

I am starting CC tonight. It goes against all my instincts, but i'm going back to work next month, and i'm pregnant, so DS has to sleep through. Have tried other ways, but he's almost 8mths, and enough is enough!

I am dreading it, i really am.

Please tell me i'm not alone!

OP posts:
ruth2007 · 20/02/2007 19:48

Great News!

My DD has been a bit off today so not sure how tonight will go. She slept more than usual this afternoon so I kept her up slightly later to make sure she was tired. At 5 minutes now and just the odd murmer.

I have a feeding problem now - she tends to be Hungry a 6pm so won't eat at bedtime 7-7.30pm. But she wakes up after 45 minutes wanting food. She used to do this even when BF to sleep and I think it is a habit.
I would hate to cc her and leave her hungry.

Any thoughts? Habit or Hungry?

kiskidee · 20/02/2007 20:27

great news then. lets hope it all keeps going well for the next 2 or 3 yrs.

but if you are ever curious about infant mental health and sleep research in infants and why some babies are ever so 'good' when it comes to sleeping, this website and some of its links will come in very handy. the posting dated Nov 11th speaks for the babies who cannot speak for themselves.

you should also pop into reading articles on dr james mckenna's website too . his research was instrumental convincing Ferber to recommend cc from no earlier than 12 months in the most recent edition of his controlled crying book.

no. i am not putting it up there because i am being mean spirited. i am putting it up here for the many lurkers we get on mumsnet.

ps, my dd also went out with out a peep. a bf, some drawing together another bf and snores.

amelia02 · 20/02/2007 21:37

This is a nice review.

malaleche · 21/02/2007 09:54

Have read the links in previous 2posts and would just like to say i'm glad the 'official' lines on cc or not cc are moving towards a common ground. Very much like the common ground the majority of us tread most of the time. I did cc with dd1 to quick and fairly painless effect but with dd2 it's almost immpossible to stick it out - becuase i have dd1 making a racket in the backround. Last night dd1 woke up with a nightmare and ended up in our very small bed. dd2 woke for middle of the night feed and went back in cot right next to us and to sleep, no problem. What im trying to say is even those of us who advocate cc, myself included, do not stick rdgidly to it, of course we don't - just like any other 'parenting method' we adapt it and customise it to suit us. Please excue one-handed typing, have just bf dd2 to sleep on my lap. i'm just trying to do my best as a parent but find it impossible to sleep well with dc in bed with us. when i havent slept well i cnnot function normally, it's as simple as that. i will not be made to feel that i am harming my dc mental health just because they cry a bit sometimes. what difference does it make if they cry for one minute because i'm on the phone or one minute in their cot? are those of you in the no-cc camp telling me your dc never cry? i mean as soon as they open their mouth you are there? don't you ever eat or go to the toilet?

ruth2007 · 21/02/2007 10:15

I agree malaleche. You have to do your individual thing. Unfortunately co-sleeping is not possible for my family and we had done everything else so after ALOT of research I opted for CC. It appears to be working well and 1 week in DD is dropping off very quickly at night and with only a bit of a struggle for naps.

A happy side effect is that she also appears to wake less in the night - possibly because she is learning to settle herself. Although I had no problem with this as she is demand BF. She is also much more alert and happy when she is awake and is now a joy to her Daddy who previously only saw her in the evenings when she was crying from exhaustion. She even let DP put her to bed last night with no fuss at all

Hope everyone else is getting on well.

annmarieandlily · 21/02/2007 10:47

Hi everyone. Although cc so far has been going well, this morning we had the worst session of crying so far. Put her down for her morning nap and she cried and cried. She was getting so upset I decided to bfeed her to calm her down. When calm again, I put her in her cot awake and with a bit of shuffling she went off with only a few wimpers. As malaleche so wisely pointed out, we don't need to be completely rigid about cc. I think part of it is having realistic expectations of your baby. In my experience of the last couple of days, I need to make sure that dd is completely relaxed and ready to sleep before putting her down. I can't just bung her in her cot straight out of the car or after playtime and expect her to get the message. I know milk = sleep won't help the night wakings but I feel comfortable with what I'm doing at the moment. After all her bedtime routine is exactly that - why should during the day be any different? Oh well I'll get off my soapbox now! Hope everyone else is progressing well.

kiskidee · 21/02/2007 12:36

can you point us in the direction of some of your research ruth2007, so others can read it and make up their own decisions on it too?

I don't agree with some of the article that amelia posted - with articles by sleep experts to back up my positions. i don't have the time at the moment to expand but may tonight.

kiskidee · 21/02/2007 12:37

so, no, i don't think that the 2 camps are moving closer together despite what the article is saying.

DetentionGrrrl · 21/02/2007 12:56

goodness- haven't checked into this for a while as we're still reducing the bottle at night until we try CC.

given that it's a support thread, it might have been nice if people hadn't stated how much they disagree with it. plus, it's all very well saying you should get to know your baby (so i don't then?! ) and be positive, but when you're working and pregnant, it's easier said than done. Start a thread about how much you disapprove of CC instead. (and we've had a great nighttime routine for months thank you)

things are going well here- DS waking twice, sometimes once! have got the bottle down to 6 ozs with 2 scoops powder now, which is fab. another week or so, and we'll try CC. it's not what i wanted, but after trying NCSS, i feel like it's worth giving it a go for a couple of nights.

Sleep filled nights to all!

OP posts:
Marls001 · 21/02/2007 21:19

Wanted to add some support to this thread, if this helps ...

I don't know whether what we have been doing is called cc. I had never heard of cc before MN. But I had used the "Babywise" book for DS1, and as I recall it did work.

This time around (DS2) we did not schedule as consistently because DS2 was sick with one cold after another for a while, so we let him get better without scheduling anything.

Then about a month ago after he'd been well for a while DH (who was doing nights by that point due to my insomnia) suggested we put him on the "Babywise" schedule just like we had for DS1.

Mine is only one incident, hardly proof that the method works.

The transition as I observed it - in our case - seemed relatively sudden. After about 3-4 days of day scheduling (of naps & feedings, not night scheduling), DS1 began to sleep in the night without waking us at 1,3,4 am - and he also suddenly had a personality change. He is a much happier baby now - just beaming, where before it was difficult to get 1.5 "okay" hours out of him during the day (and therefore I wasn't able to really enjoy him very much-made me sad).

I am very glad that we ended up trying out Babywise in our situation because DS2 just seems so much more content than before. He is definitely doing better overall, whether he's able to get enough sleep now, or likes the consistency, i don't know. It just has seemed to much of a coincidence - in our case - for me personally to say that our instigating the method was wrong.

(I know that it is difficult to let your own tiny baby "cry it out." 5 minutes really seems like it's been 20.)

kiskidee · 22/02/2007 07:45

detentiongrrl: whenever you post on the www you run the risk of hearing something you won't like. like i said, offering support sometimes means hearing aspects you don't want to hear. i have made my points clear on some of the side problems with cc further down the road. if you are prepared to live with them, now that you know that they are there, then more power to you.

posting information like that is to also give a voice to babies (not just your baby) whose only form of communication is crying, as you well know.

i had already started another thread, not to debate cc or to say how much i disapprove of it but to share another way of doing things - not ncss - to anyone who cares to read it.

however, anyone is welcome to have a read and to challenge, mull, debate, add or take away, pilfer, borrow or modify any of the ideas i have on there. as we all know, our babies are individuals, living in a unique household with a unique set of people. that is why no one way or another, or another will fit. and why i am all up for sharing research based information on how to proceed.

sleep patterns of babies evolve and we learn and evolve with our children. what suits us this month will be hopefully modified by next month if we are willing to not keep forcing a square peg into a hole that keeps changing in shape.

good luck with whichever avenue you choose to follow.

i will answer my promised answer regarding amelia's link on the thread which i started here in due course.

so

DetentionGrrrl · 22/02/2007 07:58

it wasn't really aimed at you anyway kiskidee

and DS slept through last night

OP posts:
DetentionGrrrl · 22/02/2007 08:03

without CC i might add.

OP posts:
kiskidee · 22/02/2007 08:06

"To sleep, perchance to dream-
ay, there's the rub."

well very well done, you!!!!

malaleche · 22/02/2007 20:30

Marls001 - wish i could sort out a daytime routine. dd2 is 5 mo and it was only yesterday that i finaly got round to sitting down and attempting to make a schedule for her bfeeds and naps. She naps for only 20 mins at home, more if out in pram. In the afternoon dd1 is around and dd2 wakes when she hears her. It's impossible. I think i might even be overfeeding her as she's started being a bit pukey. Everything is just so chaotic and random. Haven't slept properly for 2 nights as dd1 has eye infection and cold. DP ended up in her bed, and her in ours, last night...And there's my mum the other night telling me her mum used to tell her 'the best years of your life are when your children are wee'...

Marls001 · 22/02/2007 23:25

LOL at your grandmother - ha! Right. I think the best years are yet to come
Have heard from many moms that the years between 6 and 10 are wonderful!

I'd be happy to tell you some of what "Babywise" is about if you're interested.

ruth2007 · 23/02/2007 10:30

Hi Marls
I would be interested if you don't mind me crashing the offer you made to malaleche. I have just heard about it from elsewhere and there was me thinking I had read everything going!

malaleche sorry to hear about lo eye infection, hope it clears up soon.

Hope everyone else had a good night. My lo woke a few times but went down really well again so I am starting to feel a bit better. Is it just me or does a few good days make you forget all the bad ones?

Ruth

annmarieandlily · 23/02/2007 11:57

DD slept through last night for the first time in about 3 weeks. I heard her squeaking in the night but we obviously both drifted off to sleep again. Of course now I have typed these words she'll never do it again...

Crying before bed and naps is now really down to a few minutes of grumbling. I find a timer really helps as it puts into perspective the amount of time that they have actually been crying - 2 minutes will seem like 10 if you are not timing.

Hope everyone else is doing well x

kiskidee · 23/02/2007 12:11

here are a couple of posts from 'classic Mumsnet' regarding Babywise and its author Gary Ezzo:

i'll leave you to search for the whole thread yourself if you wish to read more.

By Piffleoffagus on Mon 30-Aug-04 13:52:16
hmm heard lots of bad things about babywise as in this articel Babywise advice linked to dehydration, failure to thrive by Matthew Aney, M.D. Expectant parents often fear the changes a new baby will bring, especially sleepless nights. What new parent wouldn't want a how-to book that promises their baby will be sleeping through the night by three to eight weeks? One such book, On Becoming Babywise, has raised concern among pediatricians because it outlines an infant feeding program that has been associated with failure to thrive (FTT), poor weight gain, dehydration, breast milk supply failure, and involuntary early weaning. A Forsyth Medical Hospital Review Committee, in Winston-Salem N.C., has listed 11 areas in which the program is inadequately supported by conventional medical practice.The Child Abuse Prevention Council of Orange County, Calif., stated its concern after physicians called them with reports of dehydration, slow growth and development, and FTT associated with the program. And on Feb. 8, AAP District IV passed a resolution asking the Academy to investigate "Babywise," determine the extent of its effects on infant health and alert its members, other organizations and parents of its findings. I have reviewed numerous accounts of low weight gain and FTT associated with "Babywise" and discussed them with several pediatricians and lactation consultants involved. The book's feeding schedule, called Parent Directed Feeding (PDF), consists of feeding newborns at intervals of three to three and one-half hours (described as two and one-half to three hours from the end of the last 30-minute feeding) beginning at birth. Nighttime feedings are eliminated at eight weeks. This advice is in direct opposition to the latest AAP recommendations on newborn feeding (AAP Policy Statement, "Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk," Pediatrics, Dec. 1997): "Newborns should be nursed whenever they show signs of hunger, such as increased alertness or activity, mouthing, or rooting. Crying is a late indicator of hunger. Newborns should be nursed approximately eight to 12 times every 24 hours until satiety." Although demand feeding is endorsed by the Academy, WHO, and La Leche League among others, "Babywise" claims that demand feeding may be harmful and outlines a feeding schedule in contrast to it. The book makes numerous medical statements without references or research, despite that many are the antitheses of well-known medical research findings. In 190 pages, only two pediatric journals are referenced with citations dated 1982 and 1986. Many parents are unaware of problems because the book is marketed as medically supported. It is co-authored by pediatrician Robert Bucknam, M.D., who not only states in the book that the "Babywise" principles are "medically sound," but also writes, "'Babywise' has brought a needed reformation to pediatric counsel given to new parents." Obstetrician Sharon Nelson, M.D., also warns: "Not following the principles of "Babywise" is a potential health concern." The book's other author is Gary Ezzo, a pastor with no medical background. Ezzo's company, Growing Families International (GFI), markets the book as "ideally written" for "obstetricians, pediatricians, or health-care providers to distribute to their patients." (GFI promotes the same program under the title "Preparation for Parenting," a virtual duplicate with added religious material). Though "Babywise" does say, "With PDF, a mother feeds her baby when the baby is hungry," it also instructs parents to do otherwise. In a question-and-answer section, parents of a 2-week-old baby, who did not get a full feeding at the last scheduled time and wants to eat again, are instructed that babies learn quickly from the laws of natural consequences. "If your daughter doesn't eat at one feeding, then make her wait until the next one." Unfortunately, the schedule in "Babywise" does not take into account differences among breastfeeding women and babies. According to one report, differences of up to 300 percent in the maximum milk storage capacity of women's breasts mean that, although women have the capability of producing the same amount of milk over a 24-hour period for their infants, some will have to breastfeed far more frequently than others to maintain that supply. Babies must feed when they need to, with intervals and duration determined according to a variety of factors in temperament, environment, and physiological make-up. Averages may fit into a bell-shaped curve, but some babies will require shorter intervals. (Daly S., Hartmann P. "Infant demand and milk supply, Part 2. The short-term control of milk synthesis in lactating women." Journal of Human Lactation; 11; (1):27-37). Examples of the many other unsubstantiated medical claims in "Babywise" include: "Lack of regularity [in feeding intervals] sends a negative signal to the baby's body, creating metabolic confusion that negatively affects his or her hunger, digestive, and sleep/wake cycles." "Demand-fed babies don't sleep through the night." "A mother who takes her baby to her breast 12, 15, or 20 times a day will not produce any more milk than the mom who takes her baby to breast six to seven times a day." "Mothers following PDF have little or no problem with the let down reflex, compared to those who demand-feed." "Colic, which basically is a spasm in the baby's intestinal tract that causes pain, is very rare in PDF babies but is intensified in demand-fed babies." "In our opinion, much more developmental damage is done to a child by holding him or her constantly than by putting the baby down. In terms of biomechanics alone, carrying a baby in a sling can increase neck and back problems, or even create them." "Some researchers suggest that putting a baby on his or her back for sleep, rather than on the baby's tummy, will reduce the chance of crib death. That research is not conclusive, and the method of gathering supportive data is questionable." My review of the low weight gain and FTT accounts associated with "Babywise" revealed several disturbing trends. Parents were often adamant about continuing with the feeding schedule, even when advised otherwise by health care professionals. They were hesitant to tell their physicians about the schedule, making it difficult to pinpoint the cause for the weight gain problems. Many elected to supplement or wean to formula rather than continue breastfeeding at the expense of the schedule. The parents' commitment can be especially strong when they are using the program for religious reasons, even though numerous leaders within the same religious communities have publicly expressed concerns. Pediatricians need to know about "Babywise" and recognize its potential dangers. History taking should include questions to determine if parents are using a feeding schedule, especially before advising formula supplement to breastfeeding mothers or when faced with a low-gaining or possible failure to thrive baby. Lactation consultants also should be instructed to probe this area. Efforts should be made to inform parents of the AAP recommended policies for breastfeeding and the potentially harmful consequences of not following them. Dr. Aney is an AAP candidate fellow based in Lancaster, Calif.

By geekgrrl on Mon 30-Aug-04 13:46:58
babywise? the author demonstrated on TV how to hit a baby: pull the nappy to one side to expose as much as possible of thigh/buttock and then give a hard slap... nice

annmarieandlily · 23/02/2007 12:48

Enough already with the doom and gloom...

kiskidee · 23/02/2007 12:59

why? seriously.

here in another ezzo link.
\link{http://ezzo.info/\someone else may find it useful or relevant.

kiskidee · 23/02/2007 13:00

i mean here

liquidclocks · 23/02/2007 13:07

Kiskidee - why, after being repeatedly told (and v politely I feel) that those sorts of posts are not what the kind of 'support' this group of mums are after, do you continue to post them?

This is a support thread - not a debate, if you want a debate then start your own thread and stop trying to make everyone agree with you because they're not going to.

kiskidee · 23/02/2007 13:16

just pass on information on Babywise for those who do not yet know what its all about. That is support isn't it? even if not the sort anyone attempting CC is hoping to hear.

why liquidclocks, do you feel like you have to instruct a grown woman on what she is doing on this thread when I have said, perfectly clearly below that

support is not just about telling someone what they want to hear.

i have said that twice further down already. was that not clear enough for you?

and if you have a problem with that now thrice stated position, then by all means, let me hear it.

kiskidee · 23/02/2007 13:18

as for a debate, then read the following post below on this thread where i have also made my position clear on that issue.

By kiskidee on Thu 22-Feb-07 07:45:06

you are also invited to click on the link at the bottom of it.