Not sure what to do but have to try something

[Spod]

Ok... I'm now sleep deprived enough! Our dd is 6.5 months and is leaving me exhausted. She goes down in her cot (in my room) at night around 8pm after a bf... that parts fine. I dream feed her around 11pm and she goes back in her cot...fine. Its the rest of the night thats the problem - ie when i need to sleep. Sometimes she wakes at 2, sometimes 3, or 4am.... normally just once as i then bring her in bed with me as i'm too tired to put her back in her cot. I know that shes only hungry when it gets to aboyut 3.30 at the earliest, not before. But when she in bed with me it feels as though shes snacking all the time, hence i get very little deep sleep. I think its now become a habit, she now rarely takes a milk feed in the day before 4pm (she has 2 solid meals a day now too). I havent minded too much till now as shes been teething, but her second tooth cut yesterday so i wanna get more sleep now. She also has a problem with daytime sleep... normally only managing 2 spells of around 40 mins..... but shes always been a poor daytime sleeper. what can i try ? i dont wanna do cc. When she was around 16 weeks she started to sleep for 7 hours without waking, but she was going to bed at midnight with me (but her in her cot iyswim) any suggestions would be great;ly appreciated. thanks.

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thanks twiglet... in an attempt to ammuse myself i have wondered if maybe i snore nad its waking her up. I cant bear cc.... tried it and ist too awful for me... prefer to try pu/pd... but i have a really bad back!!! Do you think she doesnt need to feed after 11.30 at all? shes a big baby - grown out of 6-9mth clothes when 5 months...and shes only been on solids properly for around 10 days. i dont mind doing one night feed. Do you think i should move her to her won room now, whilst trying to keep her out of my bed, or do it in stages? i really dont wanna make things worse by moving too fast for her. to make me feel really valued all dd says at the moment is dada dada!!!!

really... any suggestions appreciated.... bumping my own thread!!

Hi Spod

Just my 10p worth... Have you tried keeping her awake for longer at the evening feed? My dd2 is 4 months, and when she started waking at 4am for a feed after sleeping through, a friend suggested waking her up properly at 10pm, feed, keep her awake for an hour (nappy change, chat, etc.), feed again, and then put to bed.

This works well for us -- I find that if I just give her a quick feed at 10.30 and then straight back to bed she tends to wake up quite early rather than going straight through to 6.30/7am.

Apparently this is a Gina Ford suggestion not that I do GF, I'm not nearly organised enough for that but the longer waking does make a difference to my dd, although it sounds slightly counter-intuitive.

have tried that! she then thinks its time to start the day! could try again though. thanx.

Spod - I think you need a routine. It sounds a little unusual to me that she 'rarely takes a milk feed in the day before 4pm' - especially when she has been on solids for only 10 days. I must admit I did Gina Ford, and CC. GF would say something like:

Wake at 7am, breastfeed
back in bed for nap at 9am, 40mins is OK.
Lunch at 11 or 12 followed by breastfeed or with very diluted juice.
nap at 12:30
BF at 2.30pm,
Dinner at 5pm,
BF at 6:30pm and in bed
(I would move her into her own room - you are probably keeping each other awake). Don't wake her up for a feed - wait till she wakes up. I tried waking DS at 11pm for a feed but it never made any difference to when he woke up the next time anyway. No matter how tired you are don't bring her back to bed - feed her both boobs even if you have to rouse her for the second and put her back in bed. It doesn't sound like you even have a case for cc to me at this stage.

I tried co-sleeping too (don't get me wrong) but he snacked and we both slept badly and it got worse once he could roll over.

Does she sleep in her cot during the day?

HTH

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I think AussieSim's right. It sounds as though your dd is snacking on milk all night and therefore not being that bothered in the day whereas it should be the other way around! At 6.5 months my dd, also breastfed, would mostly go through the night from 7.30 - 6ish, have a quick feed at 6 and then another hour or so of sleep. She'd also sleep a good couple of hours in the day. I know all babies are different but my dd now 18 months wouldn't cope on 2 40 min naps a day even now! If I were you I'd cut out that dreamfeed and see what happens. Then when she does wake up, give her a good 2 breast feed and put her back to bed drowsy but preferably not asleep. Incidentally, you didn't say how she goes down to sleep initially - is it awake or asleep? Whichever it is, she clearly can sleep in her own space as she does even for a short time. All you have to do now is encourage her to go for longer and more regularly. Where does she sleep in the day?

Good luck!

she normally goes into her cot drowsy, as you say, she can sleep on her own... shes just got into the habit of snuggling in and feeding because i have let her. I cant operate a GF routine... we do have a routine but not set times... so more of a pattern... its not chaos here! in the day she sleeps eithr in the pram or cot... longer in the buggy. I dont see how to get her to sleep longer in the day... I have tried everything... maybe as she gets more active. I've put her in her own room 2nite and dh is gonna help me stay awake long enuf to feed her and return her to her cot.... we'll see what happens.

Spod, for daytime napping you might try only letting her sleep for half an hour in the morning, and then that might lengthen her after lunch sleep considerably. Is the cot you try to get her to nap in in the day in a dark quiet cool room (a lot to ask I know)? Good Luck tonite!

i darent shorten her morning nap as sometimes it is only 30 mins as it is... as for post-lunch nap.... ha ha ha!!! that only happens rarely and on those days we get three short naps in... her standard post-lunch nap is after 4pm.... have tried to get it earlier! am hoping that as she takes more soilds and is forced to take moreof her milk during the day she will improve! i try to make sure she naps somewhere quiet and darkish altho' she often sleeps much better in our quiet garden than in our quiet house! just been up to answer her cries..... her teeth hurt, she had wind, she was hungry and disorientated.... argggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Spod - how horrid for you. Seems to me there is more of a routine needed and probably more food.

In my experience (DD 4.5, DD 18 months) they only really wake at that age if they are not getting enough. Perhaps she's not getting enough during the day. At that age my youngest was probably having 4 formula feeds a day (7 oz) plus 2 meals.

What does she have during the day food wise?

Its that catch 22 situation where you need to sort out the night routine before you can sort the day time out. Its so hard to get them into a routine unless they are fully satisfied food - wise. Have you tried bottles at all at night (expressed or formula) this can sometimes help them to settle for longer at night?

At 6.5 months, I would think she needs to be in her own "space" so she can get used to settling herself off to sleep. Its hard, but it does pay off in the long run.

food wise shes having 2 meals a day... i'm still using jars for the time being... today she had three quarters jar of main course and then half jar pud at lunch and same at tea. b/f she's had one at 6am, 11am, 2.30, 7.30pm and 9.30pm .... and no doubt she'll want another couple during the night. she is b/f on demand and with her solids i feed her till she refuses more. she also has sips of water during the day... is this not enough food then.... ? i offer her b/f at other times too, in case shes hungry/thirsty and she turns it down. I dont want to give formula and last time i tried to get her to take ebm she wouldnt take the bottle... and by the time if been downstairs and heated it and shes howled the house down i'm not sure what i gain. Could all this not been down to teething? she has just cut her first 2 teeth after a long teething period...could the night/morning suckling not be mainly for comfort and the daytime refusal for milk be because her teeth hurt?

Sounds like she's getting plenty, but maybe not long enough gaps between each milk feed? Otherwise you're just feeding constantly through the day aren't you?(with food or milk). Leave as long as you can bear it between milk feeds so she really works up an appetite - perosonally wouldn't think feeding on demand at this stage is good, but experts might say otherwise!

If you can, try and put her back in cot at night (easier said than done I know) see if she goes back without a feed.

If you want, try again with ebm, she'll take it if she's hungry, just might be interesting to see how much she actually takes.

Sorry can't be more help. Must say own cot really helped with mine, for my own sanity if nothing else. Whenever I shared a room with her when we were away or anything, always ended up feeding more in the night as heard every whimper she made. As soon as back in her own room, would sleep longer as I wasn't responding to every little noise, but obviously would hear her if she was really hungry. Sorry if this is rambling! I know how hard it is. Keep up the good work, you'll get there in the end!

those times i gave were for an exceptionally good day, feed wise, that we had yesterday simply because my dh took her from 6.30am and she couldnt feed in bed with me. otherwise its a struggle to get milk into her most days at the moment... not really sure how non-on-demand feeding would work as i seem to have no clue when she should be hungry! last nights she was in own room for firsat time. she woke at 2.15am and dh went to her several times before i eventually fed her at 4am because she was hungry... then back in own room wide awake, sent herself to sleep and then woke for feed at 8am... again, she really was hungry....then we dozed till 10am. I cant see how she can get through the night without a feed... or should i be tougher?

spod, I'm following this with interest as my ds2 is about 6 weeks younger and I'm also very very ready to get my nights back....
I think the day you described as good sounded fine with respect to food and milk intake - she probably 'shouldn't' need a night feed if she feeds like that in the day, so if you are consistent about putting her back in the cot and only giving 'proper' feeds in the night you may find that things get better spontaneously.
For now I would concentrate on kicking the night-grazing habit. Once you are clearer about her pattern of feeding in the night, and particularly if you sense that she doesn't need it for hunger, you can start to try and do something about it (or you may feel you can cope with one waking for a while longer). The options include gradually trying to reduce the length of the breastfeed; cuddling her without offering a feed; trying some boiled water (bit of a problem if she hates the bottle); or if those don't work, you're left with controlled crying (which imo is very effective).

That's going to be my strategy anyway - ds2 is 21 weeks and recently his night waking pattern has regressed to what it was when he was about 6 weeks old and he's taking 2 full feeds in the night (on top of his usual daytime feeds). I don't feel I can do anything about it until I'm confident he isn't hungry, so that means getting started on solids and taking it from there. I do need my nights back soon though - impending return to work!

also wrt 'demand' feeding - think you will find that if you eliminate night grazing, and as you increase the solids and are moving towards three regular mealtimes, you will find things become more structured with milk feeds in between your solid meals, plus first thing and last thing.

Think Elliott is right about grazing. Sounds good last night 'though - getting to sleep on her own. Also good with feed at 4 then 8 - as every 4 hours is ideal for your situation. YOu 'll find as things gradually improve, one or both of the night feeds should go(ie. they stop waking up for it) as long as she is getting enough the rest of the time. You don't need to give up the night feeds now I wouldn't think until things are more settled - just do full feeds at longer intervals and keep up with putting her down on her own. Hope things get better - let us know how you get on....

thanks for your help.... i think my main anxiety about it all is not to deny food when she is hungry but also not to let her feel abandoned if her teeth are hurting her..... plus, shes been terrible about taking daytime feeds... tho' thats got better last day or so....lets see how 2nite goes... of to do that dream feed soon... think i will keep that in the pattern for now.... thanks again... will let you know what happens

dare i say it but things are going well.... 3 nights of dd in own cot in own room... only coming to me for a feed and then back to her own room... she's woken a couple of times not needing a feed, with wind, dh has gone to her and she has gone back to sleep. i'm getting decent sleep now.... long may it continue! i'm still feeding at 11.30, 4, 8 (round about) although last night she didnt really want her dream feed, fed at 3.45 and then again at 9.15..... hope things are moving the right way now.

Havent read all the threads but could you express the milk and get DH to do a feed at the weekends? This helped me no end with ds as I could sleep!

how's it going spod? are you still using jars? I'm not a big gina ford fan but she reckons that jars have fewer calories than home prepared stuff, would you be able to do some of your own thing? mashed avocado, mixture of veggies mashed & frozen in ice cube trays don't take long to defrost & far cheaper.

Spod - that's brilliant. Seems like things may be falling into place for you. I'm convinced its to do with the own cot thing - do you think? Those feeding times are fine for the moment - hopefully she'll drop those night feeds anyway, eventually - once her daytime intake has increased. Do you feel better now you're sleeping a bit?

Good news spod - personally I'd quit the dream feed now as it might just encourage an extra waking. Off to resurrect my old thread now as things not going too well here!

Just wanted to add my support Spod. My dd is exactly the same age as yours and we too have come to the end of our tether. (Although reading your post, I realise that my tether must be a lot shorter than yours.) Our dd goes down at seven and wakes for one feed sometime between three and four. The problem is that she will then only go back down until five- five thirty and then expect us to get up for the day! Like yours she will only sleep for two forty minute bursts in the day and so would be hanging by the end of the day.

I thought cc wasn't for me either but eventually I bought that Dr Ferber book (Think there are several threads on it here) 'Solving your childs sleep problems'. I was amazed to read his assertion that 'no healthy child needs feeding in the night beyond three or four months old.' ( I think he runs a sleep clinic so has a fair amount of experience) He does say that if you are happy continuing to do so then fine - the child will eventually sleep through but it might take up to a year! That was enough for me to decide that no I don't want to continue night feeds and that something needed to be done.

We have spent the last two nights employing his cc technique which hasn't been nearly as awful as I expected. He suggests going in at ever increasing intervals and comforting your baby without picking her up. I might be lucky but as a consequence my dd never got hysterical although she did 'shout' for us for an hour and a half on the first night. And he is absolutely right - when we've got up with her she hasn't even seemed that ravenous for her first feed. It's reassured me that it was habit, not hunger that was waking her. We haven't cracked it yet but I'll let you know how we get on tonight... Even if you decide that you can't do it I thoroughly recommend buying the book - he has all sorts of other solutions to sleep problems that might be worth you looking at. Good luck