Help! disintegrating sleep pattern - long message, sorry

[Heathcliffscathy]

my ds was sleeping from 7 til 7 with a feed at around 10ish...over the last 3 nights this has started to disintegrate, last night he woke up at 1.40, 2.30, 4 and 6...because i'm a bad mother, i only fed him at the 1.40 and 6am wakings (to be honest i was so shocked he was waking up and he did go back to sleep himself after crying for just a minute or so on the other times)...he is asleep now (9.20am) and has been since i fed him at 6am (bang goes the routine which would mean that i would wake or he would wake at 7am)...i've been sort of vaguely following gina ford (I used to be completely anti, before I sufferred the torture of sleep deprivation, read the book, instigated the feeding schedule and was saved)...now i'm at a loss as to what to do, everything was going so well, he was happier, we were blissed out...at the same time as i started the routine i also started weaning, which seemed to be part of why he was sleeping through more. is he hungry, is this a growth spurt, or his digestion playing up? i am very lucky in that ds is more than happy to go down to sleep awake and in the past has been able to wake and put himself back to sleep without any protest...this predates the gf stuff...he is adorable, but i am absolutely petrified of going back to several wakings every night...he is 5 months this week...help!

is anyone out there? am i being a stupid cow and should count my blessings (i do!)...?

Hi sophable, it took a week or so for my ds' digestive system to settle after starting him on solids so it could be that. Have you kept the milk feeds up? I kept all 5 days feeds in place and introduced a little food before a couple of the milk feeds (at 4mo) and by 6/7mo I was on 3 solids and 3/4 milk feeds. How much are you feeding him in the day? What is his pattern?

Sorry - should have previewed, I meant 'I kept all 5 milk feeds in the day in place'.

have followed gf (like a sheep) and so kept all milk feeds in place and only given solids afterwards...thing is that he reacted really well initially, i started at 17 weeks (for my sins) and it's only now that there seems to be a problem...

I have an 18 week old and sleep has been ok most of the time (settled into a similar routine - 8pm - 6am) and went haywire for a while last week, I figured she needed to start ahving more food in the daytime and was waking from hunger. I gave her breakfast and upped the lunchtime quantity a bit, also increased volumne of last milk feed, she settled straight back donw. Hope this helps

one other thing -if you do have to feed him in the night, try "sleep feeding" as a way to limit the disruption and avoid making it into a pattern of fully waking. This is where you get to them really early before waking themselves up by bellowing and keeping lights low, feeding without talking in a close cuddle etc. so that they remain relaxed and virtually asleep. It helps to minimise long term sleep disruption patterns as once they get used to waking, it can be difficult to fix even if they are no longer hungry because you have adjusted daytime feeind.

sorry - meant feeding (last word of last post..) Typing fast with one hand, baby on knee and toddler pestering for more attention - will switch off computer now!)

thanks stripeymouse, but the thing is, its hard enough for me to get him to take lots of milk during the day as it is...seems to get full/easily distracted quickly...so am bit worried about upping solids...urgh, feel so despairing this morning that we're on a slippery slope, when i really thought we'd got thro the worst (won't make that mistake again!)
x

milk will be his primary food at the moment.. even though he's still on the same number is he drinking less? Are you bf or bottle?

four bf and one bottle per day

If he's going back to sleep after a minute, just ignore it and it will pass. Don't feed him unless you are sure he's not just stirring and will go back to sleep.

actually more than a minute, but i feel so guilty for rolling over and going to sleep that i wrote that...i think he must be hungry as when he is fed and needs his sleep he does go down brilliantly, i just don't know why he has started needing more food at night or whether it is wind from weaning veggies, am dreading tonight.

had another bad night (am shattered)...even tho husband managed to give 5 oz bottle on first waking (9.30pm) ds still woke at midnight, 2.30 and 4.30am...i fed him at midnight and 4.30...i have no idea what to do as of course he wasn't that interested in his first feed this morning which will have the knock on of him needing more tonight too...

You poor thing, no wonder you feel shattered. Is there anyone who can look after him for a bit at some point today to give you a short break? even an hour would give you time to relax and have a long bath/cat nap.
If he is not that interested in long feeds and instead insists on frequent small feeds, sounds like he has just got into the habit of snack feeding. If he is dropping off to sleep almost as soon as you feed him, maybe it is more a comfort thing rather than real hunger? I would try to get firm (hard I know) and not pick him up at the midnight feed - leave him to cry and see how long it lasts. Even if he yells for half an hour and then falls asleep, it won?t hurt a healthy baby and over the course of a few nights, it is likely he will either stop waking at all or learn that there is no point crying and drift off himself. I am not a huge fan of controlled crying, but you have to break this habit somehow and you cant use intelligent discussion about the benefits of longer sleep to him, you have to help him relearn his sleep pattern. Have you read any of the baby whisperers books? her EASY system has helped a lot of people re establish a good sleep pattern. Good Luck tonight and be firm!!

argh...he is feeding completely craply today which means tonight will be even worse, but what am i meant to do, i can't force feed him...neither can i starve him if he is genuinely hungry tonight (which he will be)...anyone know how i turn this around again...i can't understand what's happened, we were doing great til about 3 days ago

Hi sophable, how are things today? I went on a [feeding] downhill spiral with ds once (can't remember what age) and found ourselves feeding more at night than in the day. The only way I got him to revert back was to leave him to be hungry in the early morning feeds so he had a good appetite at 6/7am. You have to be careful he doesn't overfeed on this feed or else it will just come back up 30mins later. Then we stuck to milk feeds every 3-3.5hrs and 2/3 solid feeds in between (so he was packing it in!) In a couple of days his feeding got back on track.

I think at 5mo my ds was on 3 solids a day which were about 3 icecubes in size (one of the smaller glass jars of baby food, but I made my own). What quantity are you giving? What time is his last solid feed? My ds has solids at 6pm and a bf at 7pm just before going in the cot so he's quite full at bedtime. HTH

hi karen99...the fact that i'm sitting here at 2pm in my nightie should give you some idea of the kind of night we had...went down at 7pm (after 8oz bottle preceded by bowl of babyrice and pear) woke for feed at 9.30...we held off feeding him until ten...then woke again at 2am and 4.30am...so not quite as bad as the night before, but it did mean that he wasn't interested in the first feed this morning...i think you are probably right and we need to up his milk and solids during the day if we can and not give him milk at the 4/5am waking...i've been following gf and giving milk before solids, but tonight i may try giving solids at 5pm and then a milk feed just before bed...thanks v much for the moral support...i think i just have to keep in mind that this will pass (it's so hard to believe that when you're in it) and we'll get back to where we were before...dh helps alot, which makes the fact that it's monday tomorrow and he is back at work a bit depressing...but feel much better for reading your message and knowing that i'm not alone.

Hi sophable don't dispair, you will get your sleep back! It will pass. I had a thread a few months ago on dropping feeds and it had all the details of his feed times etc. so I'll search for it and talk some more. hugs

Hi sophable, found the thread - here and shows I was on this feeding plan at 5months (btw, he never went to nursery so I was able to take my time with things):

7am - bf
10am - bf
11am - solids - usually two large ice-cubes of fruit or veg
1:30pm - bf
4:30pm - bf
6pm - solids - usually three ice-cubes of fruit or veg
7:30pm - bf

So he was on 5 bf in the day + 2 solids.

*I shifted to this pattern around 5.5-6mo:
7am, 11am, 4:30pm, 7:30pm - bf
10am, 1:30pm, 6pm - solids
*and a couple of weeks later (after boobs adjusted to feed drop) I moved to:
7am,3pm,7:30 - bf
9am,12:30pm,6pm - solids (now 4-5 icecubes each meal)
*At 9mo (where has the time gone!!) he is now on:
7am & 7pm - bf
breakfast 8:30am, lunch 12:30pm, snack 4pm, dinner 6pm

By no means am I saying 'this is the correct routine to be on' but a possible guide or comparison to what you're following. I went cold-turkey on night feeds at 4.5mo and have never re-introduced them. If he is ill and wakes he only gets water after 7pm.

As for your sanity is there anyone nearby that can help tomorrow? Will try and get online later tonight to see how things are.

Also, have you tried any dried packet mixes? I quickly moved on from baby rice and started mixing [Heinz I think] Mediterrainian vegetables with freshly pureed courgette and brocolli and other combinations. I would puree up three courgettes, freeze as icecubes, and then microwave to v. hot and if runny add some packet mix, plus it adds a bit more flavour.

Just some ideas. HTH.

sorry spelling is so bad!

karen99 you are a lifesaver...i know i need to sort our daytime feeds, my only problem is getting him to stop having most of his milk at night (this is very recent- like only the last five days) i'm reconciled to the fact that i will have to have a miserable night tonight and not feed him after midnight...even if i have to sit with him while he screams his head off, i can't keep feeding him at 2.30 and 4.30 cause then he doesn't take any milk in the morning and in fact his whole daytime feeding is shot...thanks so much for being here for me...is very helpful and helps me to keep this in perspective, i have to remember that he was doing great until recently and that he is healthy and happy which are the main things...but sleep deprivation is hard...you've made me feel as if mumsnet is a haven...i got coldshouldered off a thread earlier today which given how tired i am made me feel just incredibly shit and as if i couldn't even get support here...so you've made me feel positive about mumsnet again, thank you...

sophable, karen99's feeding schedule is almost identical to what I did with dd, except of course dd didn't manage quite the amounts of 'solids' (hate that word!) that karen99's did.

I just wanted to say too that I remember dd going through a v. funny stage re. milk drinking at that age. She was b/f and began to squirm and fuss and get distracted when I was feeding her. But this didn't affect her night sleep. She also used to refuse to drink much first thing in the morning which was agony for my full breasts! What I'm getting at is that he may be using you as a sleep comforter rather than needing a feed at night and even if he gives up the night feeds you may still find he's going through a daytime milk fussing period. You may not of course. But I think you can afford to be quite firm about dropping the night feeds without worrying that he's hungry necessarily.

There's a really good book just called 'Sleep' which has a chapter on the relationship between feeding and sleep. I found it v. helpful.

Good luck for tonight. You dressed yet?

karen99 and the others, these feeding routines are really interesting to me as I'm just starting to think about introducing solids, and last time with ds1 I found it very confusing combining solids with bf,and really felt that this was when my bf started to unravel - and there's a dearth of advice in the books on this. Anyway I have a couple of questions:
Karen99 - when did you start solids, and did you drop the night feeds after you introduced solids?
Also, did you have any problems keeping your milk supply up as you introduced more solids and dropped feeds? Or are you someone who's always produced loads of milk?
And before you started solids, what was your feeding pattern? Interestingly, your 5 month pattern of bf is pretty much identical to mine - (apart from one or two night feeds in addition, also I wouldn't say my timings are very consistent day to day, I follow ds2's demands which do vary)
I am just worried about keeping up my supply once I introduce an 'external' source of nutrition and he starts to demand less frequent feeding as a result. I feel like my supply is always pretty marginal - ds2's weight gain has not been fantastic, I never feel engorged and I find expressing pretty difficult....so I'm in need of some encouragement!

evita - any more details about that sleep book, like the authors? (not that my bulging bookshelves really need ANOTHER sleep book )

sohpable, no problem at all!!! definitely here for you. MN as a whole is really supportive. Some days responses are slow, but there will always be someone there. I loved it when ds was only a few months old as it gave me the time to log on for ages, but now he's sooo active I don't get much chance (and of course I'd rather spend my time with him rather than a pc!)

IME the only way to get the day feeds back on track is to be brutal in the night. If he's a good weight and a happy, content baby this shouldn't be a problem. One night, maybe two, should be all that's needed. If you think going cold-turkey might be just too much for him then give him something at 2:30am but not at 4:30 - it's the latter that's encroaching on the first morning feed. Then Mon night you can miss both feeds. If he's too distracted to feed properly in the day then do it in his room quietly (curtains open). Since 4/5mo I've always given feeds in his bedroom (if at home), away from the lounge (toys/tv/people). They become such expert feeders that 10mins shut away upstairs is such a short time.

Will check in again before bed. BTW, where are you? I'm down in London.

Tonight will be better