Help! disintegrating sleep pattern - long message, sorry

[Heathcliffscathy]

my ds was sleeping from 7 til 7 with a feed at around 10ish...over the last 3 nights this has started to disintegrate, last night he woke up at 1.40, 2.30, 4 and 6...because i'm a bad mother, i only fed him at the 1.40 and 6am wakings (to be honest i was so shocked he was waking up and he did go back to sleep himself after crying for just a minute or so on the other times)...he is asleep now (9.20am) and has been since i fed him at 6am (bang goes the routine which would mean that i would wake or he would wake at 7am)...i've been sort of vaguely following gina ford (I used to be completely anti, before I sufferred the torture of sleep deprivation, read the book, instigated the feeding schedule and was saved)...now i'm at a loss as to what to do, everything was going so well, he was happier, we were blissed out...at the same time as i started the routine i also started weaning, which seemed to be part of why he was sleeping through more. is he hungry, is this a growth spurt, or his digestion playing up? i am very lucky in that ds is more than happy to go down to sleep awake and in the past has been able to wake and put himself back to sleep without any protest...this predates the gf stuff...he is adorable, but i am absolutely petrified of going back to several wakings every night...he is 5 months this week...help!

sophable ...
any chance he could be teething and in need of comfort rather than being hungry at night? Just a thought .... my ds was a perfect gf baby until he started teething at 7 mths ... we had to get things back on track then
poor typing b/f baby at same time .....

and since my last refresh I can see there's been even more help/advice on hand! You are not alone..

Elliot - how old is your ds2?

Introduced solids around 19wks as ds started to take more milk from me and has always been a big baby (~18lb at 19wks!). We do have some allergies, but decided ds needed more food than I could give him (feeds went from 7 to 10 in a day!) Dropped the night milk feeds about 2wks into solids.
Rather than saying my milk supply decreased it just adjusted to the new feed times - ds went from 15min per feed to 10mins after solids were introduced. Some people give milk and then solids straight after. I found it easier to give a full bf wait an hour or so and then the solids. This way I knew he was getting a full bf and would take perhaps a bit more solid food as his tummy had a chance to empty. I must admit I kept the timings pretty accurate (+/- 30mins), feeding with or without hunger signs.

Don't worry about your supply dwindling once solids are introduced, boobs are amazing things and will adjust to the new requests. If you're giving 4-5 feeds in the day you'll be providing/producing plenty. You might find introducing set times helpful so you can keep track of things. Perhaps don't think about dropping any feeds until solids are established and he's getting a good variety (for my ds this was around 6.5mo). HTH

PS. boobs have always felt floppy since about 12wks when bf got established, it's no indication of what you're producing. AND make sure you're drinking around 4-5pints of water a day.

Bloomin heckers Karen99, why 4-5 pints a day when bf?
You just need to drink to thirst.

karen99 - thanks for that. ds2 is coming up for 17 weeks and I am definitely not intending to start solids until I'm back from holiday in 3 weeks time. Then I will take it from there according to whether he starts to increase his feeds.
I know all your reassurance is right, its just really believing it that I have a problem with! Ds1 fed so often that inevitably once I started solids we dropped feeds quite rapidly - then I introduced daytime formula bottles and obviously that didn't help either - once I was down to morning and evening feeds I pretty much dried up. I'm interested to see you are on two feeds a day at 9 months - does he have any other milk or formula, or does he have water at other times?

I am not sure I can make my feed times any more consistent - I do tend to feed within 3 hours whether or not he is asking for it, but sometimes I have to feed him to fit in with ds1 and other activities. he is an incredibly settled and easy going baby and his feeding pattern has barely changed since he was 8 weeks old - unfortunately neither has his weight gain at about 2.5-3oz per week! he feeds for at least 30 mins and always from both sides - it would be great to have quicker feeds but I am wary of curtailing feeds whilst his weight gain is not that great.
Anyway I'm sorry for hijacking the thread a bit I was going to start a new one about bf and weaning, perhaps I should go and do that...

hercules! I must have been a fish in another life! Seriously though, I drank lots when I was pg and just kept up the habbit. But the best advice I've been given for making sure you're producing milk is to drink lots and try and eat well and regularly. Several friends and s-i-l agreed that supply got better after boosting water intake and making time for themselves to eat properly.

Elliot - afraid I have the luxury of just one ds at the mo so can't comment on the balancing of two babes It sounds like you're doing fine. Maybe keep 3 feeds going rather than just morning and eve when the time comes if you're worried about drying up, but I think the formula may have had an impact on things too. I've not introduced formula and going against the grain by replacing my 3pm milk feed with cows milk at 9mo. Just replaced the morning one with cows milk this morning too. All very sad Hoping to keep the bedtime one for another month , but am missing our 'cuddle' times lots [yes we should put this under bf/botf section!)

Sorry! went a bit mad with the smily faces!

Hope you're ok sophable as I'm off to bed now, taking advantage of the clock change whilst I can. Will check in with you in the morning. x

Makes sense for helping to boost!

omigod, am in tears...feel like i have been hugged by you all...thank you so so much. dh is in giving another bottle (only took 4oz at 7pm then woke at 8.20pm and had one and a half breasts (if you know what i mean)) now is 10.30 and is taking another bottle from dh...i am determined not to do a feed after 2.30 tonight and if possible to actually not do anything after midnight...he's had next to nothing milk wise during the day today - really only one proper bf...anyway, i feel incredibly better for having your support, you are lifesavers, and i am saved...o dear, he's only had an ounce and is now falling asleep according to dh...i think we're in for a terrible night, but hopefully this is rock bottom and tomorrow will be better. btw, karen99 i am in sw london...thanks again...am genuinely touched.

btw, karen, I have taken to feeding him in his room with curtains shut!!! sometimes it helps...ghosty, i couldn't never bf whilst typing, i use one of those stupid brestfriend things which has saved my neck and shoulder from ache but mean that i'm not that great at flexible bfding...i don't think it is teething...he has been teething on and off since 7 weeks but doesn't seem to have kept him awake, my instinct says this is about hunger...dh is swearing, i'd better go and see if there is anything i can do to help

x

Hi sophable, hope things went ok last night! [all fingers and toes were crossed for you)
Your posts are probably old news now, but if he took only 1oz at 10:30 and then started to snooze that possibly suggests it may have been for comfort only. I really hate the term 'controlled crying' - who knows what that means. I prefer helping them to settle themselves. You're in a tricky place at the moment and ds may have needed your cuddles last night to get through without any milk. If the daytime feeding improves alot today then you may be in the situation tonight where you could leave him for 5mins or so after he wakes and see what happens. As tiktok always said to me, he's in the safest place and no harm will come to him. If he doesn't settle then perch next to him and stoke his head, say soothing words and try to calm him down. If you want to pick him up and calm him that's fine, just put him back in the cot once he's stopped crying and repeat this as many times is needed. This is based on the pickup/put down method by the baby whisperer. If you search for it or 'tracey hogg' you may find some other useful threads to browse.

Let us know how you're doing. Will try and log on again later.

Whilst you're around karen99 quick question. I'm thinking of trying the whisperer on dd (nearly 6 months) as i dont like the idea of cc (never say never though) and like the sound of tracey method. Have you used it? Does it work? DD sleeps well at night and usually just needs a very short feed or cuddle (more the cuddle) to go back to sleep but after feeding her to sleep daytime she immediately wakes up wide awake when put down.

Sophable - sorry to read of your trauma here. Am interested in your last post you said ds had very little milk during the day. Have you thought about a completely different tack and offering him more breastfeeds during the day and a little less solids? Milk can provide more calories than solds can. He may have wanted fed more frequently during the night to boost your supply. He then may have settled back down again. By having a 'feeding fest' during the day, you may well boost your supply and fill him up for night time. 4 breastfeeds during the day are not a lot at this age and perhaps he could do with more.

My philosophy was always just to breastfeed when they asked for it. There is a danger that you can start to get worked up about when to feed and not to feed which transfers over to the baby causing everyone to be fractious. At 5 months you may still have to be flexible for demands for night feeds IMO. You get back to sleep quicker with a fed baby that being kept awake by a crying one. You might find if you go with him for a few nights he will settle again. I have B/F 4 babies and they all did different things feeds wise.

At this age I would try and avoid filling him up with solids in the hope of sleep. you might find it is counterproductive.

On the drinking front, you only need to drink as much as your thirst dictates. Years ago the advice was to drink pints of water a day but if you don't normally do that there is no need.

Another thought is does he have a dummy?

hmmm, was pretty rough night all round, but not as bad as i was dreading i guess...i hear what you're saying about tracy hogg karen, but i've found with my ds that if i go and sit near him/stroke his head, he becomes apopleptic, really hysterical, whereas if left to it, the crying never gets as bad as that...we left him for 40 minutes crying, not continuously, but on and off, last night at 4am...i can't believe that myself as i was digging my nails into palms and hating myself all the while, however, he stopped, when he started again 20 mins later my dh went in and offerred boiled water and he took it and then went to sleep until 7.30 am...mears i know that you will think me horrendously cruel/misguided for that, but believe me i've tried being flexible/offerring breast whenever he wants it, the trouble is, if i dont kind of structure the feeds during the day, he doesn't stay on for longer than 5 minutes and then we just spiral into total mess with me feeding every hour through the night and crying while i'm doing it. i want to carry on bfding but last time things got out of control like that it made me come v close to giving up...this morning he took pretty much a full feed at 7.30am, (but like you said karen, some of it came back up) and fed like a trojan just now at 11am, but wouldn't take any solids (which is fine by me, mears i always give solids after milk and never try to force the issue)...he is asleep now...i feel pretty terrible about the stress i put him through last night, but having said that he seems more chipper than he has been for days today...when i was pregnant i felt that cc or leaving a baby to cry was utterly barbaric and something that i would always condemn and never do, but having got to some extremely bad places in terms of sleep deprivation, i feel like i have to weigh up his needs with my need to get enough sleep to be a good mother to him...

i know tonight will be rotten again, but maybe it will be better than last night and within a few days maybe we'll get back on track...i just hope i haven't scarred my child emotionally for life in the process...

fwiw sophable, I'm quite sure your ds will be fine - I'm sure last night was much worse for you than him!
Anyway I'm going to get off your thread now and start another one on the trials of bf past 4 months....
It sounds like you've achieved your objective anyway, and I hope tonight is better!

sophable, the pattern of waking you described since you put him down at 7.00: waking 8.20 and 10.30 just CAN'T entirely be down to hunger. If he can go at least 3 hours in the day between feeds he can definitely do that night. I think he's using you and / or bottle to help him settle. Could you perhaps try sticking with not feeding him at those times and settling him in other ways. Mears is right that you may need to still do a night feed or two at this age, but not as frequently as every couple of hours! The times he's waking seem to coincide with those periods of light sleep they hit. My dd more or less slept through by 3 months though now and then back-tracked etc. She was never a big eater / drinker and I didn't introduce solids til well past 4 months. Personally I think the filling them up on solids idea doesn't work. Milk is more nutritious and filling than baby rice and vegetables which are quickly digested and leave one more hungry.

Elliott, I can't remember the authors of that book but it was the only one simply called 'Sleep.' A friend recommended it to me whose daughter was sleeping badly still at 6 months. The book sorted them out and wasn't harsh like GF can be. I recommended it to sophable here because it's v. sensible on the relatinship between food and sleep and how to feed too much in the night is counterproductive to a little one's digestive patterns and knocks on to their sleep patterns. It's also v. easy to read and repetitive for those sleep addled moms.

I just re-read your initial first message, and hey, if he was capable of going 7-7 a week or so ago, he is definitely capable of doing it again, so persevere. You'll get there.

sophable, the pattern of waking you described since you put him down at 7.00: waking 8.20 and 10.30 just CAN'T entirely be down to hunger. If he can go at least 3 hours in the day between feeds he can definitely do that night. I think he's using you and / or bottle to help him settle. Could you perhaps try sticking with not feeding him at those times and settling him in other ways. Mears is right that you may need to still do a night feed or two at this age, but not as frequently as every couple of hours! The times he's waking seem to coincide with those periods of light sleep they hit. My dd more or less slept through by 3 months though now and then back-tracked etc. She was never a big eater / drinker and I didn't introduce solids til well past 4 months. Personally I think the filling them up on solids idea doesn't work. Milk is more nutritious and filling than baby rice and vegetables which are quickly digested and leave one more hungry.

Elliott, I can't remember the authors of that book but it was the only one simply called 'Sleep.' A friend recommended it to me whose daughter was sleeping badly still at 6 months. The book sorted them out and wasn't harsh like GF can be. I recommended it to sophable here because it's v. sensible on the relatinship between food and sleep and how to feed too much in the night is counterproductive to a little one's digestive patterns and knocks on to their sleep patterns. It's also v. easy to read and repetitive for those sleep addled moms.

will def try to get hold of 'sleep' book, thanks evita...hear what you're saying about solids..

From what I remember the Sleep book says that once they've been able to sleep what it calls a 'core night' of say 5+ hours you should never feed them again during those times because they are probably waking for other reasons. Imagine if we woke up with toothache or just insomnia and were always given a glass of rich milk. We'd have rotton indegestion the next day and not feel like eating. You may have to go through a few tough nights of crying but he will get the message. And it has to happen sometime. you can't go on like you are.

Really agree with Evita's last post. As soon as they know milk is on offer in the night they'll do what they can to get it from you! It sounds like last night WAS a success in some ways. He's feeding better today which IS good. Agree about the solids, milk is def his best food at the mo. With the irratic feeding at the mo have you thought about expressing regularly to make sure your supply stays up? One poor day of feeding won't do much, but a couple may give the boobs the wrong message.

How long was his feed at 7:30am & 11am? ds dropped down to 7-10min feeds around 6mo, I put it down to him being an expert feeder rather than not taking a full feed. See if you can squeeze in another feed now (by 4pm) and then again at bedtime. If he wakes tonight before 11pm maybe try and leave him to settle himself again. If he wakes after11pm you could give him a quick feed and then see how long he sleeps. If he wakes before 4am you can decide to give or not to give a feed. IME if he wakes after 4am it's best to give boiled water like you did last night so he's hungry at 7. He may just surprise you and sleep through!! [in my book sleep through=5+hrs]

Forgot to ask - how is daytime sleep for your ds?

Pls don't worry about leaving him to settle last night. IMO 45mins of mixed crying every now and then will not leave damaging effects. 45mins every night for weeks on end is a different story. We tried the pu/pd method with little success I have to admit. It just wriled ds even more each time we went back in and would take 10mins+ to calm him in our arms before putting back down. I got alot of support from MN and decided to leave him to settle. He cried for 45mins the first time, next around 10, and then 2mins. He cries for up to 5mins for each nap and bedtime, it's just something he does, but he gets really good sleep now. Had another thread on this. Will dig it out.

Anyway, gotta go, ds has just woken up. Will try and check in later. hugs for tonight. You're doing great.

really good usually, but went awol along with nighttime sleeping a few nights ago...but today has slept 50 mins in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon...is still shattered but i tried putting him down for a quick nap just now and he wasn't having any of it...he had another good feed at 2pm...he feeds for 1/2 hour total (15 mins each side - pretty much how long it takes for him to drain them...i'm glad to hear that yours were 10 min total feeds, that will make me less paranoid...) when he doens't have a full full bf (like at 2.30 today) more like 15-20 mins total...anyway, tomorrow going to see our incredible homeopath, maybe she'll help,,i'm v v heartened by your message karen and don't feel like quite such a shit...actually, i know that for me the easier option (despite lack of sleep) is to give in and feed, but knowing that it does neither of us any good in the long run i'm kind of glad i stuck it out last night, i jsut have to make sure that i do the same tonight, as the one thing i really really do believe is that inconsistancy is the cruelest thing...he is babbling at me now and i think he agrees...thank you again, your are all wonderful

Sophable - I don't think that you are misguided at all - I hope I didn't give you that impression. At 5 months old he is an expert at breastfeeding in comparison to the brand new baby who drove you to despair. What I was trying to say was do not panic about him looking for extra feeds at night - it does not mean that he will spiral out of control. Going with the flow for a few nights may be all that is needed. If not then you can try to make him sleep through by other means if you are still sane in the process. It sounds to me as though he has had a growth spurt. He was settled before and he will do it again. Just have faith. Best of luck, mears

sohpable, mears is one of the posters I really really value advice from. she knows what she's talking about, especially when it comes to boobs!

Now dh has walked in the door I've been able to look up those old threads. I found these a really good read.

How do you teach a baby to settle themselves???????

A diary of using Controlled Crying...

the bottom of this thread was MY daytime nightmare

The Baby Whisperer

Hercules, I think it's the bottom link that talks lots about TH's method. Unfortunately it didn't work for my ds, but leaving to settle did. And for others cc isn't the right thing either, but pu/pd might be. I think you've just got to try different things to see what works, but IMO you need to try each one for atleast a few days to see if there's been an effect(we applied to the daytime nap too). HTH