2 year old insomniac- Mummy needs therapy!

[Novacane]

My DS, has always gone to bed later than your normal 'average' baby- it all started when he was tiny and DP commuted and came back from work late etc etc- then dreaded reflux took hold and it was impossible for any sort of bedtime routine to be established till the reflux subsided at about 14/15 month (that was a super condensed story!)
Anyway, fast forward to now, DS is 2.1, and as a I type at 10pm, he is wide awake. bouncing around in his cot, singing dancing and generally annoying me- he's been there since 8.30pm.

He gets up at 8am every day, and generally sleep for about 2hrs in the afternoon, but sometimes he doesnt nap, and for example today it was 30 mins. its all hit and miss really. I have noticed in the past few weeks though hes been going to sleep later in the day (which I thought was why he wasn't settling so well in the evening)

Well im flummoxed and desperate for ideas. Hes not unhappy, hes quite ok singing and dancing to himself in his cot- but I cant go anywhere near upstairs- because he will start to scream and want to come out- and I know when DP gets home soon he will
1.) tell me im cruel for leaving him there
2.) go and get him and put thomas tank on (cos ive been cruel) therefore making it worse.

HELP! I dont mind 9pm asleep as I know he sleeps till 8am- but this is getting rediculous- its getting to the point that im tucked up in bed asleep while hes still awake!

any ideas?

Nova x

dd was/is like this sometimes I found it easier to keep her downstairs and let her sleep onthe settee dh used to work shifts which impacted on this problem, I also stopped naps unless earlier in the day i found waking her earlier also helped but it was trial and error really and working out what suited us as a family it does get better as they get older and go to pre school

hes now growling at his fifi toy!! Help!

gothicmama- did you find you could 'condition' her into a good sleep pattern or do I have to accept the fact I have a toddler with the sleep pattern of an adult? lol

thanks for your input

Novax

just to add, I have thought about putting story tapes/ light music on for him at night (used to have lullabies when nursing him as a baby/ going through dark reflux nights), DP mums says she used to play story tapes for DP... anyone have any experience- does it help or keep them awake- im desperate!

I've always thought that at least if they are in their cot, i can consider myself 'off duty' to some extent which helps with sanity. Don't have much experience of this but don't like idea of children downstairs late on (TV, distractions etc and it sort of legitimises what you DON'T want to happen). What about adding to the bedtime routine like always play a soothing CD in his room/put certain toys in cot/some ritual type thing that just might add to all the cues that say "GO TO SLEEP NOW!" or start bedtime routine earlier in hope of rejigging his sleep timetable? I'm sure Dr Tanya would know but i feel for you - adult downtime from toddlers should be available on prescription if required.

Ohhh Mine was doing this. i had to go hardcore and ditch the nap. I know you are cringing at the thought but once you have an evening without him you won't regret it.

I tried waking after an hour for the nap but it made no diff so eventually just went for no nap. There have been days when she was put in the bath or dragged outside when seen to be slumping but now it is heaven.

Up at 7.30 nice day and bed at 7.30, sleeping about 10 mins after that.

pss bad mummy moment - some of the more exotic normally banned foodstuffs are absolutely splendid at helping avoid the nap until a better night sleep cycleis established.

Having watched House of Tiny Tearaways etc ad infinitum, isn't it up to US to impose the routines/sleep patterns we want? Don't feel guilty or cruel - you said he was quite happy in his cot after all. Could he be over stimulated in any way? Reacting to any food? He could be testing you and the boundaries you set. Or He could just not be tired...But think of your state of mind at the end of the day - knackered mums need time out! And i'd go for music over story tapes every time - all 3 of mine have had 'Now that's what I call most soothing classical hits volumes 1,2 & 3' type of thing - and the same cd for the same child each night. I thought well, even if they weren't going to sleep it would give them something to listen to that might just soothe...(and they helped me nod off while b/f at nights) but they are all girls if that makes any difference. Eldest rebelled at 7 or 8 and wanted story tapes but i found they kept her awake. Now she's 10 its Kaiser Cheifs hmm, hardly conducive to drifting off.

LMAO worshipper at the exotic foods lol, I had to wait for DP to come and pick me up form asda tonight and I was wating outside for half an hour- DS was getting stressed and whingy so I gave him some chocolate- and boy am i regretting it now!

NOvax

im thinking some chocolat I gave him earlier Emmylou- making usual late night bad sleeping a lot more acute tonight maybe...

Strange insn't it - I can eat a whole box of chocs and fall asleep like a baby on the sofa within minutes. (complete with dribble probably) Why can't they?

Also thinking about Tiny Tearaways - the thing that always strikes me is that it's never easy, and it always comes with screaming, complaining etc. Did you see the one the other week with the little girl who always slept with her dad - they had to put her back in her own bed 298 times the first night, and she was screaming, biting etc., but the second night, it was like a dream for the parents. They learn fast... Everything I've read suggests that toddlers do need 10-12 hours of sleep a night, as that's when their brains do a lot of developing and learning from the experiences they've had in the day. I don't think you're being cruel leaving him in his cot - he's safe there and happy. If anything, getting him up and showing him videos is crueler, as it's stopping him getting to sleep at all.

Did you try cutting day time naps, or always waking him up if he's still asleep at a certain time, like maybe 2.30/3 if you want him to go to bed at 7-7.30?

Maybe you could also do it gradually if you can't face the trauma of screaming child - and make bedtime gradually 10 minutes earlier every couple of days, so that after 2-3 weeks, it's a couple of hours earlier than now?

Don't know if any of that is any help though...

Well hes gone to his grandads for the night and Im at work so at least somebody else gets to deal with bedtime tonight!
Last night he didnt settle at all and was still up at 11.30pm. Just as predicted DP came home and got him up and presented him with a Thomas and Big Cook Little Cook magazine!
How thoughtful of him!
Turns out he must have been hungry because a slice of toast and a bottle of milk later and he was dead to the world. He is a faddy eater and he does wake in the night for milk if he has not had a lot to eat that day- only once every 14 days or so- so maybe it is hunger.
I'm sure it's a multi faceted problem- and I think Im going to start with a strict bedtime routine, getting earlier each day, and play some quiet soothing music in his room. Getting DP to play the game when Im at work will be the next challenge!

Have a good evening tonight with DS at his grandad's!

At risk of offending, I think it's really important that you and DP sit down and work out a strategy you're both happy with, and both supportive of. If you're trying to get DS into a clear routine at bedtime so he knows what's expected, and bringing it gradually forward, or whatever, I think it's really important that you and dp act together on it. If you are strict, but he lets DS get up and watch Thomas, then it might be doomed, as DS may start to play you off against eachother. He'll definitely be getting mixed messages, and won't know what the structure for bedtime is, he'll just be confused.

Good luck!

Good Luck Nova and stick with it

Claire, no offence taken at all, and I wholeheartedly agree- its just when DP is tired from work etc etc and Im not there he does whatever is easiest.
I don't think he really understands the importance of it- he thinks tiny tearaways show is just a load of kids screaming and she talks crap- he doesn't get that I actually watch it to try and learn something.
Will update when Ive got Ds home!

thankyou for your support ladies

I must admit I would def try adjusting the day sleep before using any tania techniques at night time. If he was tired he would sleep, he is a bit small for understanding now is bedtime so get in regardless of whether you need to sleep or not. Until we cut out the day naps dd was quite simply not tired and you could do all the rapid returns you like we would have been on our knees and she would have thought "tremendous a new game!"

At the moment I bet he isn't getting anything like 11 to 12 hours at night so is catching up during the day and then that is knocking back him being tired for bed.

Seriously try getting him to go without a nap one day and he will be out like a light early, once you have managed it for a few days they adjust and stop needing naps.

you speak a lot of sense baba- he could quite easily sleep for 3 hrs in the afternoon and is a right little trog all aft/eve if I wake him up from his nap! then he wont sleep in the evening so the next day he is shattered and wants to sleep for ages again in the afternoon.
I did get him to 6pm the other night and he fell asleep on the sofa- I had to go to work and Im not sure what DP did but he was still awake when I returned from work at 11pm.

DP and I definately need to sit down and work out a plan and stick to it. easier said than done but I'll try.

You've had a lot of sound ideas from the other mums but can I just add:

You want him to go to bed earlier, you need a break in the evenings, you are not being cruel, you need to prioritise yourself (for once) to make you a saner/happier mum during the day. Sadly, some two year olds really do not need an afternoon nap - esp. if they have slept well at night. My first born DD had a two hour nap every day AND slept well at night, until she was 3 years old. Imagine my surprise when second-born DS decided he wasn't having any of it with afternoon naps at around the time of his second birthday. I was horrified at first, but decided I just had to go with the flow and learned to live with him being around all day. I have to avoid taking him out in the car in the afternoon because still, now, at 2.8 he would fall asleep. But, bless him, he does sleep 8pm to 7am and is cheerful all day long. We also have exactly the same routine, drawing curtains, same two songs, same teddies, same words I say, and I always always say (with both of them) "Sleepy time now" just before putting out light. I think a two year old is old enough to understand that it's time to sleep, so persist with it, good luck, remember you must have some time to yourself and your toddler does need 11 hours sleep a night. P.S. I've never yet met a baby who sleeps 12 hours. My kids go to sleep at 8 and wake at 7, and always have done. Friends of mine who put their children to bed earlier, consequently have to get up earlier. Does anyone else think this 12 hours a night is an impossible dream?

I agree - I think you should drop the daytime nap. I think he's getting mixed messages - perhaps he thinks he should stay awake until your dp gets home so he can play. He's almost being rewarded for staying awake for as long as he can! The evening playtimes have to stop and he needs clear messages that it's time to sleep. A classical CD sounds like a good idea to me. Mozart works particularly well with my dd.

Hope things get better soon, and I think you're doing the right thing by leaving him in his room.

deffo drop daytime nap, you'll find he's asleep super early every night. Yes you will need to avoid car journeys/buggy trips at that time in the afternoon until he gets used to it, but once past 2 i always really paid the price if any of mine had as much as 5 mins sleep during the day .

You could've been describing my son (til 3 weeks ago)who was a terrible sleeper. I used to sit here with my head in my hands listening to him scream/sing/shout at various times throughout the night. He suffered from reflux too. I presume you've tried knackering him out during the day? Really don't know what to suggest as we tried everything. It's probably no consolation but I wonder if it's just a development thing (they get to a stage where they realise they need to sleep)which all children reach at different times. Hope you get some rest soon.

Another 12 years Nova and you will have the opposite problem.

If its any consolation - my DS is now 14 and won't get out of bed at all before 2pm on non-school days!!! He seems to need about 14 - 15 hours of sleep in each 24.

When he was a toddler I would put him in his cot, but he wouldnt even lie down... used to stand and scream about it being too light. I had to buy a blackout blind in the end (expensive) and after that had no problems. Even now he likes his room pitch dark.

ditto themoon66 - we've got blackout blinds in all bedrooms (a shop in Harrogate did them for us Nova) I have trouble sleeping if its too light now and we have to take extra towels with us on holiday to rig up temporary blackout. I think there is a higher incidence of sleep related problems in countries that have high number of daylight hours in summer - but i could be talking bollocks.

kayzed, my DS is like yours - sleeps for 12-13 hours a night, and 1 1/2 - 2 hours a day, and he's just 2. The day time nap has got shorter, and I don't let him sleep beyond 2.30/3 because I want him to go to bed at 7-7.30. I have also found that if he doesn't sleep in the day, his nighttime sleep is affected, and he seems to wake up earlier the morning after he hasn't had a good nap at lunchtime the day before.

But they are all different, and I have friends whose children don't sleep in the day anymore, or have never slept in the morning beyond 6.

Nova, I think the main things are to try experimenting with day time sleep - if DS is sleeping for 3 hours in the pm until 5, he's unlikely to want to go to bed before 9 at the earliest, so maybe cut the sleep to 1 1/2 hours at first, or try cutting althogether - he might be moody about it for a few days, but it'll settle down. And then talk to DP about working on the nighttime routine together - bet DS has worked out that if he stays awake, Daddy will come and play with him when he gets home - got to stop if you want sanity!!

Also, what kind of sleeper are you? I could enter a sleeping competition for England and might get into the final, so I reckon DS has inherited the 'sleepy gene' from me, and the 'run about all day without stopping except to nap' gene from DH. Good combo!