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when to start sleep training?

52 replies

Cha · 21/11/2003 23:33

Is 12 weeks too young? Ds wakes three times a night despite good daytime sleep routine and only falls asleep on the breast or in the pram. When should I start to get tough? Didn't do controlled crying till 6 months plus with first child, she didn't sleep through until 11 months. Am the walking dead at the moment and can't bear the thought of many more months of this (with 2 to look after this time). Someone told me that Michael(?) Ferber is good - is it worth buying his book?

OP posts:
Cha · 24/11/2003 15:33

Nobody got any ideas / opinions?

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ThomCat · 24/11/2003 15:38

Sorry - sleep TRAINING and CONTROLLED crying - I don't know what these things are.

motherinferior · 24/11/2003 15:42

I like Ferber myself, I have to admit. Would you like to borrow my copy?

traceyshep · 24/11/2003 18:39

I can't comment on Ferber as I've not read the book, but I would think 12 weeks is too young for controlled crying. Does your DS sleep in his own cot/moses basket? If he's too used to going to sleep on the breast this can be tricky to break - my DD did this when she was younger. As soon as I put her down she used to wake up! I sometimes got herto sleep in her basket instead with me reassuring her. We also used a dummy until she was a bit older and could find her own fingers - she rarely needs the dummy to sleep now Does your ds still wake up hungry in the night, or is it just for reassurance?

AussieSim · 24/11/2003 19:09

IMO 12weeks is too young for sleep training. My ds only ever woke up one time in the night, and I give Gina Ford CLBB the credit for that. I would recommend getting him on a routine so you can be sure that he is getting the right amount to drink (and sleep) at the most advantageous intervals for sleeping through, or at least only waking once. When he does wake the first time I would make sure that you give him both boobs even if you have to rouse him to take the second.

I didn't follow GF's recommendations about expressing, but if I had my time again I definitely would, to make sure that I had enough milk to get him to sleep at 7pm from an earlier age.

I was trying to make it to 6mths before initiating the controlled crying but ended up doing it at 5mths with good results, although it is easy for them to slip back into old habits if there routine is disrupted by sickness or in my case having visitors I didn't want to wake.

I had sleep training instructions from a midwife, but I also read a great post on a US website from an Australian midwife, that was less reliant on the whole timing thing and more on analysing the crying i.e., were they getting worked up or winding down, were there gaps between cries etc and she also said you should follow your instincts on whether to pick up or not. The longest I let ds cry when in training was 10mins before going in. I have also stopped having a nite lite in his room from early on and only operate with the light from the hall through a slightly open door.

As recommended by Aloha on another thread today, I used Mumsnet to distract me during training, as if I had laid in bed or stood outside his door I would have gone mad.

HTH

katierocket · 24/11/2003 19:33

IMO, 12 weeks is too young to try and train a child. And I think you have to wait until 6 months before you're going to get any results with cc. Also, and I'm sorry but I have to say this - mums whose babies sleep through at 12 weeks or only wake up once don't know how lucky they are and (from my experience and wider circle of friends with children) it has nothing to do with GF or anything else and more down to good luck with the type of child. Think that you can certainly make things better/improve a childs sleep patterns but some are naturally lighter sleepers/more active just like adults are.

poor you though - I really know how tiring it can be. get sleep whenever you can (not easy I realise) and wait until 6 months to see if cc makes any difference.

codswallop · 24/11/2003 19:34

ditto Kr

traceyshep · 24/11/2003 20:14

kr I agree, in my postnatal group we have a wide range from early risers to one baby who still wakes a lot in the night at 6 months. So far my dd has been good, and reading all these posts I know I am lucky - I keep expecting it to change, and try not to take it too much for granted! Sometimes though sleep patterns can improve with age - not much help at the moment I know! Cha have things improved any the last few days?

FairyMum · 24/11/2003 20:25

I think Ferber himself is saying to start around 6 months, isn't he? There are lots and lots of books on the market. You can buy Ferber's book (I haven't read it myself) or just a general book about sleep which will give you all the Ferber and Ferber light theories. I have read them all and I consider myself incredibly knowledgeable on this issue. Only problem is I could never get mine to sleep.....

katierocket · 24/11/2003 20:36

likewise - feel free to come round and borrow from my extensive library of sleep instruction manuals.

zebra · 24/11/2003 20:41

Ferber's book (yes, I have read it) doesn't actually say when you can start sleep training. It implies around 3 months. It's only in subsequent interviews that he has said 6 months. I guess that's based on the advice that some babies really do still need night feeds up to 6 months old to get all the calories they need.

If you do do sleep training, Ferber is relatively 'kind'. He says to slowly break the habit of night feeds, for instance; don't do it cold turkey. AND, he co-slept with his own children, by the way. Before he developed all his theories about sleep training and wrote the book.

motherinferior · 25/11/2003 08:39

We did a Ferber-lite last week at 21 weeks - taking dd2's dummy away. It worked. I don't feel cruel, I have to admit.

Cha · 25/11/2003 15:30

Motherinferior - yes, would love to borrow your copy. When is the next E Dulwich meet up?

Sometimes he wakes only once but mostly it's about every 3 hours or so. He doesn't usually drink much either, especially the second or third wake up. he just doesn't know how to go back to sleep without something in his mouth. he is trying to find his thumbs but with little success so far. What seems to wake him is trying to poo around 5am - sometimes the straining can go on for ages and he gets all upset. So do I...

Oh, I have just to resign myself to a few more months then. Roll on Easter.

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cords · 07/12/2003 11:38

Cha , I have had the same quandry about CC and sleep training too. I have now stopped struggling with the issue and will not think abt it till DD is 5 months, and starting to be weaned ... My DD wakes during the night at unpredictable times (I think cos she farts and makes so much effort it wakes he) and not (shld not anyway) becasue she is hungry. However, it seems that the only way for her to sleep again is to suck on breast . It seems she feeds more during the night than day . Have started to give her bottles of expressed and one formula a day and so now can gage how much she drinks. I suspect that before she may not have been getting enough during feeds as she is not a very efficient sucker. Will see if things progress !

I have found that placing DD on tummy to sleep hekped her to settle back to sleep if she was only slightly awake or stirred during the night ... She is 3 mths old.

DD also tries to suck her thumb but cannot find it , so sucks her fist instead .

Aussiesim ...I am also roughly following GF routine , but do not do the 10pm feed .. I found that she woke during the night all the same ..I agree abt 7pm feed and not getting enough ....That is why I am now trying to give expressed milk oin bottle to make sure she takes enough . Sometime s she is so tired by 6pm (does not sleep much during day) that she doesn;t spend long enoguoh on boob to get a good feed II feel ... feeding from breast seemed to make her sooooo drowsy .

Cha · 07/12/2003 16:52

Cords, re the feeding to sleep thing -I am trying something that I have 'invented' - sure it is out there somewhere else though.

What I have started to do is when it is time for him to sleep and I know he is fed, tired, dry and comfy, I lie down next to him on our bed. He immediately starts to scream at me. I just stay still beside him, stroking his hair, patting his back and talking soothingly. I don't pick him up or feed him. When I can hear he is getting fed up with crying and is starting to slow down, I give a pull on my Ikea lullaby rabbit thingy (it plays that classical tune that you hear on all Walt Disney films when someone is going to sleep / been knocked out) and pat in time with the beat. This seems to be working a treat. I am hoping that he will eventually learn to associate the sound with falling asleep and one day (can't help but dream) when he wakes up in the night, a pull on the rabbit and maybe the odd pat will send him back to sleep. Have only been doing this for a couple of days, nap times and bedtime. Haven't dared try it yet for the nightime wakes... Anyway, will keep you all posted.

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cords · 08/12/2003 00:52

Cha ...sounds like the right idea .... Yr DS is same age as My DD ? 13 weeks .

I have taught DD to associate patting and shhhh'ing with sleep as well /... In fact I do both quite aggressively. I find that if she gets realyl ratty and cries in angry over tired rage, that if I shhhh REALLY loudly in her ear, it quietens her down , almost to submission ! Also, patting as well really soothes her. Sounds like we are doing the same, except, I have tried, and it is the only thing I seem to have done which works. Even shh'ing when I tried to get her to take a bottle helped sooth her and calm her down.

I am approaching her naptime and as usual try to relac and figure out how to get her to sleep without another crying session ....

I only have the one DD as well, so can imagine the difficulty you must have.

Cha · 08/12/2003 17:19

Sounds like we are at the same stage - ds born 31 Aug and now 14 weeks. No more kids for me, thank you!

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bunnyrabbit · 08/12/2003 22:30

DS is 13 weeks and found the pick up/put down works really well. We're not leaving him to cry, so I'm happy, and he's not being left alone, so he's happy.

I was a naughty girl and tonight I kept him up passed when he was tired and I should have put him to bed, 'cos my DH had a s**t day at work and I knew seeing the little boy would cheer him up. Unfortunately DS was then over tired and when it came to put him down was not a happy bunny!!! Only took DH 15 mins and 3 put downs to get him off to sleep. Surprisingly DH said it was great 'cos at least he got to see DS even if he was whingeing, but I'm not doing that again. Next time he goes to bed when he's tired and DH can put up with looking at the copious amounts of digital pictures I take of DS every day so that he doesn't miss out on anything...

BR

cords · 09/12/2003 01:06

I have had the worse night yet !!!!

DD woke at 11:30, 1:30, 3:30, 5am .... I ended up aving to feed 3x as she wld not settle and sucked at my shoulder madly each time I picked her up ... I am SOOOO TIRED ! Why is she doing this ?

SHe seems to need to pass wind each time she wakes ??? Anyone know what I can do to helkp her ???? SHe poos only oncce every 3-5 days !!! Dr says it is normal , but it is giing her lots of wind. I am wondering if things WILL get better ! They seem to get worse during the night !

FairyMum · 09/12/2003 07:26

Could she be cold? I find that DS woke lots because he was cold. I was so worried about overheating him that he was freezing instead.....

cords · 09/12/2003 09:07

hmmm , could be cold I guess . I will put her in her sleepbag tonight then . She sleeps on tummy (13wks old) and she does when wriggle out and above her sheets .

It is 5pm Hong Kong time and I am almost nervous abt he night ahead. If she wakes before her supposed feed time i.e put down at 6:30-7pm ... so therefore 2-4pm , then I am going to be strict and not feed her ... When I pick her up though she sucks at my shoulder so she wants to suck ... I guess I will have to revert to rocking her back to sleep instead (which is the worse evil ?!)

Hi Bunnyrabbit , how long did it take for you to apply and see results in the PU/PD method ??? I need some encouragement ! Do u think it can work if I put DD on her tummy ?

adell · 09/12/2003 09:42

Cords, I think she's probably having her 3 month growth spurt which is why she's waking so much, no consolation at all I know, but she probably does need the milk ( I repeat this to myself through gritted teeth as I crawl out of bed in the middle of the night) . A grobag has definitely helped with DS (12 weeks) as he also wriggled out from under the sheets.

Cha, have you seen those music things that come automatically when the baby cries ? Blooming Marvellous does one which has melodies, a heartbeat, rain or waves . That way it will come on without you having to get up in the middle of the night. The only problem I've found with it is that it gets through a lot of batteries.

aloha · 09/12/2003 10:28

Cords, do wrap her up warm and cosy in her sleeping bag and have you considered a dummy? She does sound a very sucky baby. I know it is hell, but try to relax a bit. I'm sure it's not anything you are doing, some babies are just more sucky than others, and some babies take longer to get in to good (ie convenient for us!) sleeping habits. I know, I had one of those. He's lovely now though!

cords · 09/12/2003 11:24

I do sound neurotic and stressed don't I ??? !!!! I have just put her to sleep , so I will report tomorrow ! She is ina grobag .

I have one of those music things and find that a) it drinks batteries b) that the option where you leave the sounds/lullbay on a 10 min timer to be useful . I think that I have DD conditioned a bit to associating the lullaby with bedtime .

I am hoping that it is a growth s[urt ... although this has gone on for over a week now ... still growth spurt ? I msut admit, despite the exhaustion, hearing her coo and gurgle at me tonight has made up for all the sleepless nights !

Aloha , have tried dummy before ...she gets even more angry . having said that I did try this am for her nap, and it did help her settle when I held her as if breastfeeding. I am scared to get her into the habit only because she sleeps on tummy, and am afraid that she cannot spit it out or if she turns with it still in her mouth ...

bunnyrabbit · 09/12/2003 22:14

Cords,
Don't know if PU/PD will work but it's worth a try. At least you'll be conforted that she isn't crying by herself, and she'll be comforted 'cos you're there. Have you tried Infacol or Gripe water for the wind? It might help her.

DS doesn't sleep on his tummy so I'm not sure about this I'm afraid.

Definitely think DS is hitting that growth spurt.... has gone from not eating much to crying after the took 6 oz!!!

BR

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