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What worked for us. Hope this helps.

870 replies

nectarina · 29/01/2012 21:03

This post is going to be massive - no apologies however.

So I've posted at least 5 queries about DD's sleep and read about 1 billion threads, because DD only napped for 30mins in the day, would only BF to sleep (since a newborn I wanted to get out of the habit, but nothing else did it). She spent the first 5 months in her cot, only for us to end up co-sleeping so we could get a bit of rest. She would BF every 2 hours at least in the night, and by the end she'd wake every half hour before we went to bed. I knew I couldn't do CC/CIO, I'm not strong enough even if I thought that was the right thing to do, but I thought that I would be forced to if things carried on the way they were.

We read No Cry Sleep Solution, which is complicated and didn't work for us.

So a friend had tried a technique, that she recommended and I thought that it was too much of a leap for DD, but i kept the email, and one evening I sort of snapped and decided that IT WAS TIME. DD was 8 1/2months. I don't know from what age this technique is recommended, but I don't think I'd have wanted to do this earlier, as you still have to cope with the baby crying. I knew DD was ready because now she quite clearly has two cries - one properly sad and scared, the other a bit shouty and put on, so when doing this technique you know what's going on (but I'd like to add that I still comforted DD when she was shouty - she's still trying to say something, but I deÞ nitely wouldn't pick her up and panic!)

I'll paste her email to me, hoping she won't mind. We didn't do it in the ten days, as it was just a bit too much, but i wonder if the way we did it made things a bit complicated. So I recommend doing it as laid out.

But now DD takes 20mins to fall asleep by herself (with one of us in her room) in her cot, in her room. and I do not feed at all between 7pm and 7am. Dh goes in in the night and he gives her water in case she's thirsty but she's quite happy without. It takes him no more than about 3mins to resettle her (unless ill).

After starting this at the beginning of January she still wakes up once or twice a night but it doesn't affect me as I wear earplugs and DH goes in! ha ha ha! (I still hear her and wake up, but I don't wake up fully and find it difFicult to go back to sleep) Do I need to tell you how I feel like a different woman?

So here's the email -

^"Ok, this is a plan thing that we first tried with dc1 when we got to the point where we knew something had to change. There seems to come a point where not only do you get tired of 'helping' your baby get to sleep, but whatever you do seems to work less and less - as if they know something has to change too! It takes a bit of work for about ten days or so but mostly the first couple of days you really put your back into it and then it gets easier. I remember vaguely doing it with dc1 and have just rediscovered it with Dc2 she is a bit of a firecracker so I was expecting trouble but babies love to learn something new, especially around this age and she only woke once last night despite having a cold, which is a HUGE improvement. Dc1 found this very easy and never shed a tear. Dc2 screamed 'TRAITOR!!' at me many times during the first night (she does that a lot), so I'm not saying that there won't be some crying because you will be doing something different to before but you don't have to leave her side and can reassure her as much as you need to, physically and verbally.
The idea is that you are no longer going to help her go to sleep - in whatever way - if you rock her, feed her, jiggle her, whatever it is. You can be there and reassure her but it is no longer your job to MAKE her go to sleep. It is your job to support her whilst she does it herself.
First of all, you know that thing that everyone says about having a bedtime routine (which I imagine you already have) is utterly true. By the time they are a toddler, the sound of a running bath is enough to set the bedtime clock going. When you choose to do this thing, it is really important to stick to your bedtime routine without fail for the ten days and it needs to be between 20 and 45 minutes long. Also, this plan also applies to naps, so you need to be able to be at home for naptimes - just until Dd has the thing established - ten days usually does it. Lastly, you are aiming for Dd to be in bed by 7ish in the evening and not much later. If you're like me you're knackered by about half four, so starting bedtime at a quarter past six is no trouble. You've probably done all that so on to the plan. I'll do bedtimes first and then naps.

Day 1, 2 and 3 - Place a chair right next to the cot. Make it a comfortable chair, you may get to know it fairly well. Have a duvet, cushions, iphone, book to hand. Do your bedtime routine and put Dd in the cot awake. She may well not know what to do next and try all sorts of things. If she stands up you can gently pop her back down again but only a few times - if she insists on standing for a bit then let her - it may just be one of those things she incorporates into her own burgeoning routine, and I daresay she is capable of getting back down again by now. You can pat the bed to let her know you want her to lie down. Sooner or later she is likely to sit down for a bit and eventually plop on to her front. She has to find her own way through this so she may try eating her blanket or playing with a toy before she lies down - that's up to her. If she cries, you can pat her and speak to her. As long as you remember that your patting and comforting is not there to get her to sleep, just to help her calm down in this new and confusing situation so as soon as she starts to settle, lighten your touch with a view to taking your hand off her, and stop speaking. She may go back and forth a bit needing you to touch and speak to her a few more times, but each time lessen your touch when she has settled. Stay there until she has fallen fast asleep and creep out. This bit can take ten minutes for some babies, but most fall asleep after 45 minutes. Two hours is the longest on record! I expected Dc2 to be a two hour effort but no - 45 minutes almost exactly. As long as you know that it is going to take that long, you can get through it. When she wakes up in the night, you do exactly the same thing, each and every time. The first few times she wakes, she will probably yell for you, but as she gets the idea that she can drift back to sleep herself, she may just squeak and go back (sounds unlikely? I thought that too.) The idea is that as time goes on you can wait a tiny bit longer before you go in, to give her the opportunity to practise her new skill.

Days 4, 5 and 6 - move the chair a few feet away from the cot. Keep everything else the same except you are further away. Once you have had your bedtime cuddle and put her in the cot sit down. You can still go to her if she really needs you, and you can still speak to her but she may not need as much help by now. Again, wait until she is asleep before you leave. Repeat as often as necessary when she wakes although, again, leave it a few minutes before you go in.

Days 7, 8 and 9 - move the chair to the door or the other side of the room. Make sure she can still see you, but once you have settled her in her cot and gone to the chair try not to go to her unless she has got herself into a daft position and can't get out. By now she will start developing her own strategy to get to sleep, and you will be able to tell what stage she is at, because you've been watching it all the way through.

Day 10 - you have several choices. If you think things are going really well and baby can cope with you not being there you can leave the room and see how she gets on. You can hover by the door out of sight and watch what happens, and reassure her with your voice. If you feel apprehensive about it and think she needs longer you can try the Bustle - instead of sitting down, tinker about in her room, cleaning up or folding washing or whatever. Or you can continue in the chair. The idea of the plan is ultimately for you to be able to plonk and go, but I quite like spending that extra time with DC so I use a mixture of the bustle and the chair. For night wakings you now really have to give her the chance to go back on her own. Wait ten minutes ( I know - such a long time!) before you go in. I got up last night to Þ nd by the time I got to DC's door, she'd already curled up again! That's the main brunt of it. Just bear in mind that the first couple of nights are the worst - she might wake more frequently, but stick at it and you'll see an improvement. The other thing is that when they start sleeping longer in the night they get up properly a bit too early in the morning - but this usually improves over a few weeks as they get the hang of sleeping. I've kind of assumed that you are going to move her into her own room - there's no reason you can't start this as soon as you move her in. If DC get ill and it disrupts her sleep, go back to whichever stage in the plan you think works best. You can sleep in her room if you want to keep an eye on her, but don't bring her in with you.

Naps - Do the same for naps as you do at night times only you can't sit there for as long as it takes - give it an hour and if she hasn't gone to sleep, get her up and feed her or do something different and try again a bit later. If she resists napping like this twice in a day you can resort to taking her out in the buggy or something. just so she gets a bit of sleep in the day. You are aiming at two solid naps a day by the way. If you've started this thing at bedtime the night before, the nap thing is usually not a problem. I can't think of anything else right now! By the way this is based on a Canadian lady's idea. I chose to use it because it doesn't mean leaving a baby to cry. They learn to fall asleep without you intervening, although you might argue that your presence is a sort of intervention, but before long you will find yourself saying goodnight and shutting the door, because she'd not taking any notice of you anymore!" ^

So for us the First night it took 3 hours 10mins, which is why for nightwakings later on that night I just fed her instead of sitting with her. Within the first few nights she woke LOADS less and then DH would go to her and he would just ask her to put her head down and she would and go straight back to sleep. Needless to say that sort of thing just wouldn't happen before. So if I remember rightly it was only after 4 or 5 nights that I stopped feeding her. The other thing we've found a bit hard is waiting a few mins before going in to her when she wakes. We just give it one or two minutes more than we'd usually do instead of waiting 10.

DH would like to add that he thinks the important thing is to teach DC to put their head down and close their eyes - he says' put your head down, put your head down, now close your eyes' and repeats it a bit like a mantra gently until DD does, and then stops as soon as she does what he says. He says for our 9month old that after a week she knows what it means and does what he suggests! He says that this is useful in the night and that's all he needs to do to get her to go back to sleep.

For the first night I recommend a large glass of wine that you take in with you. For the second night, have the bottle waiting for you on the table in the lounge. Also on the first night we both did it together for a bit of moral support and took it in turns but I'm assuming that none of you is as much as a wimp as I am.

I hope this isn't too much of a mess, my friend's writing is very clear, and mine is all over the shop. I'm just a bit enthusiastic about how its gone. I hope this is of use to someone.

OP posts:
Bicnod · 18/05/2012 19:40

Night 4 and DS2 took 15 mins to drop off with me sitting in the room away from the cot and pretty much ignoring him. Lots of standing up, throwing himself down, general ooomphing around but no real crying. Phew! fingers crossed for another good night tonight.

Tertius - we're on holiday at the mo so DH is around to put DS1 to bed but we're going home tomorrow so will be me on my own from monday. I'm hoping by then I'll be able to plonk and go so that DS1 gets a decent bedtime story again.

I've moved (as in 4 nights ago) DS2's final bf to happen while bath is running, then get him out and dressed while DS2 still playing in bath. I'm hoping this is how it will work from monday: DS1 fed before bath, out of bath and in PJs, then get DS2 out and in PJs, leave him to potter in bedroom while put DS2 down - cuddle, tippy cup with a little cow's milk in, read peepo very quickly, in cot while singing one song then night night baby, sleepy time now and leave him to go to sleep while put DS1 to bed. Bedtime routine for DS2 as described takes about 5 mins so not too long for DS1 to have to wait.

Sounds good in theory... Not sure what will actually happen!

Tertius, any chance of getting help at bedtime for one week while getting DC2 used to new bedtime? Any relative or friend you can rope in to put DC1 to bed? I know how hard it is when you don't have help at bedtime as DH rarely home by then.

Bicnod · 18/05/2012 19:46

Got all my DS1s and 2s muddled up Confused Essentially get DS2 out bath first, then DS1, leave DS1 to potter while putting DS2 down.

Ihatemyphone, can't wait to have laptop back tomorrow.

Tertius · 18/05/2012 19:56

Thank you Bicnod, maybe that would work for me then. It takes some bravery not to use the feed to get baby all drowsy tho. I managed that with my first and always relied on milk (breast then bottle) to get him sleepy. He did self settle from 7 months with me sitting next to him for a week. But I cant manage that with my second, she is just that much tireder. She conks.

Swapping breast before the bath and then A little extra milk (cow or formula) after is an excellent plan. Except she knows her routine and pushes away a bottle and twists round for a breast feed. Ummmmmmm

nectarina · 18/05/2012 20:12

It takes some bravery not to use the feed to get baby all drowsy
Yes it does - this bit alone is the most important bit of the whole technique. You want the baby to know what its like to wind down, to be able to let themselves get drowsy, let themselves drift off to sleep. Its this thats going to help them at 3am so that they don't wake you. Its tempting to get them at least a bit sleepy, but really you have to put them down completely alert (if a bit subdued). We have a similar problem where dd gets very excited before her bath, so we feed after then books etc after that. Could that work?

OP posts:
Tertius · 18/05/2012 21:26

Thanks Nectarina, I feared as much..... I am sure you are right.

I could try a book after the milk. I'd better work on it. They do at least need to be relaxed if not drowsy, surely?

Shardlake · 19/05/2012 01:09

Hi all, we did Night 1 with our nearly 9 month old DD last night. Overall not too bad, but quite a bit of crying involved. We did the bedtime routine and then I BF her for about 10 mins until drowsy, then put her in the cot. Even this was a big step for me, as I've fed her to sleep every time for ages. She fell asleep after about 45 mins (much shorter than I was expecting) of me singing, patting, talking - with angry/frustrated crying from her, but lots of yawns and eye rubbing, for about 30 mins of that.

She slept from 8 to 11pm, but was then up from 11 to 2.30. She woke crying, so I picked her up and walked her around singing, then put her in the cot and DP and I took turns singing, patting etc next to her - lots of crying and one more pick up put down when she was really upset. She eventually fell asleep with DP playing lullaby music to her and pretending to be asleep himself. I didn't BF her but DP gave a bit of water and yoghurt at 2ish.

When she woke again at 4.30 I crumbled and BF her for a few mins and put her in the cot awake and drowsy. It took about 15/20 mins after that for her to fall asleep - most of that time she was crying. She then slept from about 5 to 7.30 (a very long stretch for her, for so late in the night), then up for the day.

I decided to go the whole hog and try the same routine for her nap this morning - short BF then in cot - and it only took about 15 mins (of crying) for her to fall asleep. She is still asleep now, more than 1.5 hours later - an all time record for her in her own cot (usually I nap alongside her in bed).

So feels like we're making a bit of progress here! It's difficult sitting by while she cries, but I feel like since one of us is always with her it's not so hard on her, she knows we're there.

I'm hoping that I am not messing things up by feeding her for a little while before she goes in the cot at night - not doing that seems a step too far at the moment, since she is so used to being fed completely to sleep. Anyway, we'll see how it goes! Cheers, am off for a Brew :)

nectarina · 19/05/2012 10:44

tertius yep relaxed but not drowsy is perfect.
shardlake for a first night i'd say that its gone splendidly. Some babies get a lot worse for night wakings in the first 3 days. I would keep one feed a night for a bit - just make sure she goes into cot awake.

OP posts:
slumberhungry · 20/05/2012 22:32

Wow, Bicnod! And Tertius - if only I'd known about mumsnet 2.5 years ago. My DC1 was a truly awful sleeper too. Funny, I managed to convince myself that we were bound to get a good sleeper with DC2. That said, DS (7 months) doesn't seem as awful as DD was, but it's all relative..

After lots of progress, we're having some minor setbacks. I spent 2 nights back to co-sleeping. They were 2 nights away from home without DH with paper thin walls. I was terrified that DS would wake DD in the night and I'd have no hope of getting anyone back to sleep at 4am. He's now back to waking every 1.5 hours or 2 hours, so we're stepping back to beginning. I also fed him in the night a lot and I think he became reliant on b/feed to get drowsy before re-settling. Now he only gets fed with a gap of at least 4 hours from the previous feed!

Bedtime routines with 2 kids and 1 adult are tricky. I started this initially when DH was around for a few days. A weekend might be a good time to start.

I split feed, so DS has b/feed in the bathroom before bath while the bath is running and I'm trying to convince DD to remove her clothing. DS has a quick dip, then is dried etc while DD plays in the bath. He has a top up b'feed in the bathroom while I try to convince DD to get out of the bath. She plays in the bathroom while I put him down. This now takes 5 mins. I leave, go back to the bathroom, try to convince DD (yes, it's the theme of my life!) to brush her teeth, take her to her room and pop back to DS if I need to. DD 'reads' books on her own if I need to go to DS and if it's a really bad night she gets a ten min episode of her favourite programme on my iphone in bed.

Most nights now, though, I'm with him for 5 mins or less, leave him fully awake and am able to spend some lovely quality bedtime time with DD before leaving her awake and praying fervently that she sleeps past 5.30am

Tertius · 21/05/2012 09:20

Thanks slumber. The split feed sounds like something I need to do. She isn't that keen on milk though and I have relied on feeding her when tired to get the feeds in... Funny to be off milk in the day but like it at night.

I am only feeding her twice now - at about 1:30 and 4:30 but cuddling her around 11 as well.

It really does seem to be one thing after another though and she now has a stinking cold (this after a virus then cutting a front tooth). I think I got about 3 days in between.

I guess there'll be a good time soon? But DH is away a lot from now and i would prefer to use this method at bedtime as she cries when I leave the room during the day anyway.

It's a waiting game at the moment.

Shardlake · 22/05/2012 03:34

hi, thanks for the encouragement nectarina!

Things have fallen apart a bit at this end - we have had one long sleep on Night 2 (5.5 hours - wonderful), but other than that DD has been waking frequently and taking a long time to fall asleep again (other than the 1st sleep of the night; she has been settling quickly for that one). Last night was Night 4 and, after falling asleep very quickly (after about 10 mins in cot) at 7pm, she woke at 8.30pm and was really inconsolable - a different type of crying, not just pissed off but the really hiccup-y scared kind, so we decided to call it off for the night and I fed her and co-slept.

I think maybe we are taking things too quickly trying to always settle her in the cot, plus reduce night feeds, simultaneously. When I put her down in the cot awake she is pretty much always crying herself all the way to sleep (albeit with my or DP's company tummy-rubbing and singing) - she doesn't go through the awake, settling down (not crying) stage at all. This seems justifiable if it is just 5-10 mins of crying then a nice long sleep for her, but not if it is lots of crying then a short sleep then lots more crying. It's still early days though so we'll stick with it a little longer and see if things improve.

hope its all going ok with you slumber, tertius and other sleepy mums, best of luck

GirlWithTheMouseyHair · 22/05/2012 05:56

hi all - can I join for support? I don't think we have it quite as bad as some - DD generally wakes in the night just to be fed (she's 6months and not weaning yet so I expect her to need 2 feeds between bedtime and morning) but getting her down for bed and naps has become a total nightmare - used to rock or feed her to sleep now nothing works to calm her and I'm exhausted.

Did the gradual thing tonight at bedtime, looking back it took about 50mins and though she screamed longer and harder than she ever has in her life I lasted a lot longer keeping calm than usual (usually I end up sobbing over her sobbing in my arms!)

She's woken a few times since (which she doesn't normally do) - first time I gave her back her dummy and she sucked a bit, popped it out and went back to sleep - but then woke again 20mins later so afraid I fed her.

DH is going to give her her first formula tonight so I can get to bed now and we're starting weaning tomorrow because I think the feeds are creeping up because she's ready.

Question - am I going to have to get rid of the dummy? She doesn't wake in the night for it (yet!), am I not really doing this right if she has it?

nectarina · 22/05/2012 09:38

shardlake yes that sounds about right - put a bad night behind you and carry on. just feed if you think hungry, but put down awake.
girlwithmouseyhair if you can be bothered to trawl through the whole thread there were quite a few discussions on the topic of dummies. On the one hand, you could think about doing this as gradually and gently as possible (which is what a lot of posters thought best). On the other, you are trying to teach baby to go to sleep on her own in a way that can be reproduced when you aren't there. You are right in thinking that she might well start waking for it in the night later on. I'll leave it up to you to decide, but I think if after 10days its not working you might have to ditch the dummy. That's probably not what you wanted to hear!

OP posts:
GirlWithTheMouseyHair · 22/05/2012 09:49

Thanks! Am slowly making my way through the rest of the thread and have reached the first conversation about dummies! My mum and I came up with this "plan" then found this thread so thought I'd join then take time to read back over while we were doing it.

I'm sure this'll be covered too - I've seen already there are/were others doing it with 6months, but I'm going to carry on feeding her at night because I don't think she needs to be night weaned yet (she tends to just feed once or twice), that's not going to be confusing for her is it?

My only real reason for wanting to keep the dummy is she's a real thumb and finger sucker already, hoping dummy will prevent that habit growing while she's little (have never caught her thumb sucking to settle or in her sleep)

weedoll · 22/05/2012 15:26

Hey all! I'm back again after another month or so of co-sleeping. Fell off the wagon after a holiday messed things up just as things were really improving, typical!! This is night 5 and going better than I thought. Bed between 7-8, up at 12 (fed) 2ish (fed) and 4-5ish (fed). I can't get my head round not feeding him at night because DS2 doesn't take a bottle really so minimal milk during the day and I've recently cut out daytime breastfeeds, so I can't rule out hunger. Also I'm normally so exhausted I forget what my plan was during the day! I think I'm doing this wrong now that I'm writing this...

Bicnod · 22/05/2012 20:06

Hi ladies.

Well, after a promising start the last few nights have been a bit of a mixed bag.

On the plus side, DS2 has put himself to sleep the last 2 nights without needing me in the room and no crying, which has meant proper stories and cuddles with me for DS1 for the first time since DS2 was born :)

On the minus side, he's been waking up more at night. He's definitely cutting teeth at the moment - I was peering into his mouth this afternoon and there are three teeth on the verge of breaking the gum, plus red cheeks and grotty nappies, so all the signs are there.

My big question is how do I reduce the amount of time it takes him to settle back to sleep once he has woken up? I usually offer water in case he's thirsty, and after that it can take 45 mins to an hour for him to go back to sleep - usually involving a bit of cuddling as the crying revs up a knotch. What I really want is for him to settle himself, but if that's a way off then it would be good to reduce the amount of time I'm up settling him if I can.

If anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them!

Myheadmyworld · 22/05/2012 20:20

I am so happy to see this thread is still going it was my life saver and took ds 2 nights and worked like a charm. He still wakes up once a night but I pop a bottle in his mouth he drinks it rolls over and sleeps. It is difficult in the beginning but stick with it! My ds was so heavy and needed rocking all the time my back was breaking and we were all fed up and tired. We are all (incl ds) much happier and less stressed and tired. I filled ds's bed with comforters and now he just pick one and cuddles it and sucks it to sleep which is probably less hygienic Hmm but I prefer it over a dummy. Good luck mummies this is the first of many boundaries to set with our lo's it does pay off!

Tertius · 22/05/2012 20:30

Oh Bicnod, sorry to hear that but it's amazing that your ds is happily self settling and this bodes so well for the future for his sleep.

Teething can be so hard for babies. My dd is teething and waking absolutely masses so I can't start the technique but I was wondering what the hell you do if you have stopped the night feeds.

No advice but congrats on the self settling. I want to get there!

Shardlake · 22/05/2012 22:53

Hi guys, sorry to hear about the setback Bicnod, though fantastic about the self-settling.

We've also had lots of lengthy night wakings and I've decided to concentrate on the 'settling in cot' bit first, and for the time being be prepared to feed DD when she wakes in the night, though trying to keep the feeds reasonably far apart. That was easy though last night, as she only woke twice at midnight and 4! Will see how we go if/when she wakes more frequently.

Feel like we had a breakthrough last night (night 5) as she settled in the cot (after a lengthy BF) with no crying at all, for the first time ever. So lovely to watch her do that.

GirlWithTheMouseyHair · 23/05/2012 18:17

Mixed 24 hours here - feels like one step forward two steps back. Took DD 25mins to settle for her first nap yesterday, she cried but no screaming. Same again for afternoon nap (even managed to have DS asleep at the same time)

She fed to sleep at bedtime, woke as I put her down but settled I about 5mins.

Then she was up and down all night eventually in bed with me, no sleep for either of us. Settling for Nap this morning turned into an absolute screaming match after she nearly fell asleep relatively easily after 20muns. 30mins of screaming later I got her up, tried again 20mins later. Immediate screams so I picked her up and rocked her and she was asleep within seconds.

I guess it's a balance of doing the method but also making sure they get some sleep and I just can't handle it when she screams like that, I can't not try to reassure her with a cuddle. Sigh. Every kind of exhausted, not sure the rest of the day will fare any better

nm123 · 23/05/2012 22:53

(Grrr - just posted a massive thread and lost it all.......)

Hi there - I'm hoping this thread/technique will be my knight in shining armour! DD is ebf, just over 5 months (23 weeks) and we have 3 issues that I need help with.

1. Naps
Since she was about 4 weeks old DD has been a dreadful napper. It's a battle getting her down in the cot (if not impossible recently), so most naps are in the pram... But even then they only last 30-45 mins (I've read loads on the Baby Whisperer forums on overtired/undertired/overstimulated..).

Feed-to-sleep at Bedtime
After her bath, I take her up to bed (she's in a 3-sided cot next to our bed) and feed her lying down until she's asleep., then lift her into her cot. This used to be fine and she'd sleep until about 3am/4am then wake for another feed and sleep until about 8am. Now, however, she wakes when I transition her into the cot (because she's heavier and I can't lift her as smoothly!) and doesn't resettle... So I sometimes end up clambering half into her cot just to stick my boob in her face again until she's snoozing. I also know she's just comfort-sucking rather than feeding.......... Tonight for example, she was actually soundo at 7pm, but everytime I detached her, she woke and it was 8pm before she eventually would let me go!

Night wakings
As I mentioned, until she was about 13ish weeks, DD would only wake once for a quick feed then be straight back to sleep. Whether this was because she was so exhausted from not napping I don't know.... Since then her night wakings are sporadic - the first is usually between 11pm-12.30am, then again 1.30am-2.30am, then 4-6.15, then usually back down until 7.30-8am. I usually feed her back to sleep (though think it's more comfort-sucking than anything), though on the odd occasion I've been able to put my hand on her chest and she'll drift back off. So I know she can go as much as 8 hours without a feed. In fact, I remember her doing 7pm-6am one night at about 11 weeks!

So............. Your support/thoughts/tips are welcome (pleeeeease!). Do I tackle the bedtime stuff first? I'm fairly sure she hates napping because I don't feed her to sleep then like I do every other time and that this confuses her. I'm not sure I'm ready just yet and it might take a couple of days to pysch myself up but I think this will be my plan - what do you think?:

-Stop feeding her lying down (:( I love our end-of-day snuggles but think this has to stop) and instead feed her sitting up.
-When she starts to comfort suck and get rolly eyes, put her in her gro-bag and then into her cot.
-Lay my hand on her and pat/rub her with reassuring words/singing.
-Do this for 3-4 nights then move further away... And repeat, moving further away every 3-4 nights............

She has self-settled on the odd occasion in the past (though not for a good few weeks now) so like the long stretches of sleep, I know she can do it, I just feel like we've created bad habits that we now need to crack, for her benefit as well as mine (and OH to a lesser extent I guess).

Not sure whether the night-wakings or naps should come after the bedtime stuff... I feel so guilty that she's spent practically all her days so far in her little life totally overtired - she'll still be quite smiley, but gets this glazed look with massive dark circles under her eyes :( And then I feel nervous about stressful night-wakings because so far OH and I feel ok on this count because whenever I hear her snuffling, I just grab her, feed her and pop her back in the cot and barely wake myself... So her having to cry for 5/10/60 minutes in the middle of the night will be something we've not really had to contend with at all so far.........

Anyway, sorry for the waffling. Thanks for reading if you got this far... I'll look forward to hearing your advice/tips/suggestions/support :)

Oh and thanks to Nectarina for the original post - so so inspiring :o

nectarina · 24/05/2012 10:05

nm123 quite a few points - to start off I'm no expert on sleep or babies so I can only give you my tuppence worth like anyone else.
the whole 'overtired/undertired/proto-stimulated' jazz I don't understand at all. Our DD has consistently had 30 mins naps for the last 8 months or so, however and whenever we do it. Since she sleeps through the night, she doesn't show signs of needing more than this. We don't sweat it.
I suggest you show a consistent approach to settling and your DD will work out the rest herself.
Your plan sounds like it won't work to be honest - they're the kind of things we tried because we didn't want our DD crying at all. Basically this plan involves not feeding last thing and not putting baby down sleepy. I think if you don't feel ready to try the plan as it is in the original post then wait a couple of months. Like I said somewhere I felt almost at the end of my tether for a few months until I was AT THE END OF MY TETHER at 8 months. It took 3 hours the first night (world record I believe) but it didn't matter because I was so fed up. If you're not so fed up, I'd just do as you're doing, don't worry about it because you'll be able to sort it out further down the line.
A lot of people have had success doing this at bedtime and for naps but not waiting 5 or 10 mins in the night.

girlwiththemousyhair yes please don't let your baby scream it out! See if it gets better each time (even if only slightly)

OP posts:
nm123 · 24/05/2012 17:28

nectarina Thanks.. I'm glad I'm not the only who couldn't apply the OS/OS/UT thing to their baby ;) DD has had some longer naps (about 1hr 45 on the rare occasion she gets going), and seems so much more refreshed afterwards - I think shorter naps have just become habit now and I'd like to try and break this habit. I am fed up of the nap-struggle, and Bedtime is getting harder so I know something is going to have to change so I want to get it sorted sooner rather than later - otherwise I fear I'll have nap battles, bedtime battles and loads of night-wakings to deal with... And that's no fun for any of us.

Naptime is consistent: wind-down, cuddle, lullabies on, into cot. If she hasn't burst into tears as I lay her down, she flicks her head from side to side and starts to doze off but then wakes herself up... She fights it.

Bedtime is also consistent, but I know I can't feed her to sleep forever, and I do think it confuses her at nap time because she doesn't get fed to sleep then. So I guess I'm coming at it from the angle that if I can stop feeding to sleep at bedtime and she learns to settle easier then, perhaps this will encourage her to settle more easily at naptime too... Do you not think this will work?

Can you give me a bit more info as to why you think my plan won't work? Whilst I can't say I relish the idea of DD crying, if it's only for the short-term and will benefit her in the long-term, I'm prepared to give anything a go....

nectarina · 24/05/2012 21:04

nm123 your plan might get her to sleep, but if she's going to bed drowsy, she'll either startle awake straight away and be difficult to get to sleep, or she'll go to sleep and wake later on. In order for her to wake less/get herself back to sleep in the night she has to go to bed relaxed but alert. Most people move the feed earlier in the routine (and feed sitting up or in the sitting room might help) so feeding gets removed from the going to sleep bit. The patting or stroking is best done only when baby is crying in order to calm them, in order to allow the baby to get themselves to sleep. I think you need to do what you feel most comfortable with however - your baby's still young.
I agree that if bedtime is consistent then its probable that the naps will get longer, it sounds like you've got a good routine for naps, you could just do the same at bedtime...

OP posts:
nm123 · 24/05/2012 21:25

Ok, so it seems the goal should be to move the feed even further away from the sleep. I wonder if bath-feed-story-bed would work, perhaps with OH putting her to bed? Problem is, she's pretty overtired from not napping in the day so by the time she's out of the bath she's pretty grouchy/knackered so keeping her awake for that feed and then doing a story might send her over the edge rather than sending her to sleep.

She's scratchy from her eczema at the mo (which I think is teething related) so I'll perhaps wait until that has settled and think about starting all this then.

Thanks again :)

GirlWithTheMouseyHair · 25/05/2012 06:04

I don't know if it helps but I'm just concentrating in naps (and bedtime if DD is wide awake), she's 6months, feeds to sleep at bedtime and wakes late evening then around 4, I feed her for both of these too as she's still little and I think still needs those feeds. I'm not sure you are confusing her because naps are very different to bedtime

But then I've give up the last few days due to exhaustion and emotional fraughtness, hoping for a decent nights sleep and starting again tomorrow...

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