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What worked for us. Hope this helps.

870 replies

nectarina · 29/01/2012 21:03

This post is going to be massive - no apologies however.

So I've posted at least 5 queries about DD's sleep and read about 1 billion threads, because DD only napped for 30mins in the day, would only BF to sleep (since a newborn I wanted to get out of the habit, but nothing else did it). She spent the first 5 months in her cot, only for us to end up co-sleeping so we could get a bit of rest. She would BF every 2 hours at least in the night, and by the end she'd wake every half hour before we went to bed. I knew I couldn't do CC/CIO, I'm not strong enough even if I thought that was the right thing to do, but I thought that I would be forced to if things carried on the way they were.

We read No Cry Sleep Solution, which is complicated and didn't work for us.

So a friend had tried a technique, that she recommended and I thought that it was too much of a leap for DD, but i kept the email, and one evening I sort of snapped and decided that IT WAS TIME. DD was 8 1/2months. I don't know from what age this technique is recommended, but I don't think I'd have wanted to do this earlier, as you still have to cope with the baby crying. I knew DD was ready because now she quite clearly has two cries - one properly sad and scared, the other a bit shouty and put on, so when doing this technique you know what's going on (but I'd like to add that I still comforted DD when she was shouty - she's still trying to say something, but I deÞ nitely wouldn't pick her up and panic!)

I'll paste her email to me, hoping she won't mind. We didn't do it in the ten days, as it was just a bit too much, but i wonder if the way we did it made things a bit complicated. So I recommend doing it as laid out.

But now DD takes 20mins to fall asleep by herself (with one of us in her room) in her cot, in her room. and I do not feed at all between 7pm and 7am. Dh goes in in the night and he gives her water in case she's thirsty but she's quite happy without. It takes him no more than about 3mins to resettle her (unless ill).

After starting this at the beginning of January she still wakes up once or twice a night but it doesn't affect me as I wear earplugs and DH goes in! ha ha ha! (I still hear her and wake up, but I don't wake up fully and find it difFicult to go back to sleep) Do I need to tell you how I feel like a different woman?

So here's the email -

^"Ok, this is a plan thing that we first tried with dc1 when we got to the point where we knew something had to change. There seems to come a point where not only do you get tired of 'helping' your baby get to sleep, but whatever you do seems to work less and less - as if they know something has to change too! It takes a bit of work for about ten days or so but mostly the first couple of days you really put your back into it and then it gets easier. I remember vaguely doing it with dc1 and have just rediscovered it with Dc2 she is a bit of a firecracker so I was expecting trouble but babies love to learn something new, especially around this age and she only woke once last night despite having a cold, which is a HUGE improvement. Dc1 found this very easy and never shed a tear. Dc2 screamed 'TRAITOR!!' at me many times during the first night (she does that a lot), so I'm not saying that there won't be some crying because you will be doing something different to before but you don't have to leave her side and can reassure her as much as you need to, physically and verbally.
The idea is that you are no longer going to help her go to sleep - in whatever way - if you rock her, feed her, jiggle her, whatever it is. You can be there and reassure her but it is no longer your job to MAKE her go to sleep. It is your job to support her whilst she does it herself.
First of all, you know that thing that everyone says about having a bedtime routine (which I imagine you already have) is utterly true. By the time they are a toddler, the sound of a running bath is enough to set the bedtime clock going. When you choose to do this thing, it is really important to stick to your bedtime routine without fail for the ten days and it needs to be between 20 and 45 minutes long. Also, this plan also applies to naps, so you need to be able to be at home for naptimes - just until Dd has the thing established - ten days usually does it. Lastly, you are aiming for Dd to be in bed by 7ish in the evening and not much later. If you're like me you're knackered by about half four, so starting bedtime at a quarter past six is no trouble. You've probably done all that so on to the plan. I'll do bedtimes first and then naps.

Day 1, 2 and 3 - Place a chair right next to the cot. Make it a comfortable chair, you may get to know it fairly well. Have a duvet, cushions, iphone, book to hand. Do your bedtime routine and put Dd in the cot awake. She may well not know what to do next and try all sorts of things. If she stands up you can gently pop her back down again but only a few times - if she insists on standing for a bit then let her - it may just be one of those things she incorporates into her own burgeoning routine, and I daresay she is capable of getting back down again by now. You can pat the bed to let her know you want her to lie down. Sooner or later she is likely to sit down for a bit and eventually plop on to her front. She has to find her own way through this so she may try eating her blanket or playing with a toy before she lies down - that's up to her. If she cries, you can pat her and speak to her. As long as you remember that your patting and comforting is not there to get her to sleep, just to help her calm down in this new and confusing situation so as soon as she starts to settle, lighten your touch with a view to taking your hand off her, and stop speaking. She may go back and forth a bit needing you to touch and speak to her a few more times, but each time lessen your touch when she has settled. Stay there until she has fallen fast asleep and creep out. This bit can take ten minutes for some babies, but most fall asleep after 45 minutes. Two hours is the longest on record! I expected Dc2 to be a two hour effort but no - 45 minutes almost exactly. As long as you know that it is going to take that long, you can get through it. When she wakes up in the night, you do exactly the same thing, each and every time. The first few times she wakes, she will probably yell for you, but as she gets the idea that she can drift back to sleep herself, she may just squeak and go back (sounds unlikely? I thought that too.) The idea is that as time goes on you can wait a tiny bit longer before you go in, to give her the opportunity to practise her new skill.

Days 4, 5 and 6 - move the chair a few feet away from the cot. Keep everything else the same except you are further away. Once you have had your bedtime cuddle and put her in the cot sit down. You can still go to her if she really needs you, and you can still speak to her but she may not need as much help by now. Again, wait until she is asleep before you leave. Repeat as often as necessary when she wakes although, again, leave it a few minutes before you go in.

Days 7, 8 and 9 - move the chair to the door or the other side of the room. Make sure she can still see you, but once you have settled her in her cot and gone to the chair try not to go to her unless she has got herself into a daft position and can't get out. By now she will start developing her own strategy to get to sleep, and you will be able to tell what stage she is at, because you've been watching it all the way through.

Day 10 - you have several choices. If you think things are going really well and baby can cope with you not being there you can leave the room and see how she gets on. You can hover by the door out of sight and watch what happens, and reassure her with your voice. If you feel apprehensive about it and think she needs longer you can try the Bustle - instead of sitting down, tinker about in her room, cleaning up or folding washing or whatever. Or you can continue in the chair. The idea of the plan is ultimately for you to be able to plonk and go, but I quite like spending that extra time with DC so I use a mixture of the bustle and the chair. For night wakings you now really have to give her the chance to go back on her own. Wait ten minutes ( I know - such a long time!) before you go in. I got up last night to Þ nd by the time I got to DC's door, she'd already curled up again! That's the main brunt of it. Just bear in mind that the first couple of nights are the worst - she might wake more frequently, but stick at it and you'll see an improvement. The other thing is that when they start sleeping longer in the night they get up properly a bit too early in the morning - but this usually improves over a few weeks as they get the hang of sleeping. I've kind of assumed that you are going to move her into her own room - there's no reason you can't start this as soon as you move her in. If DC get ill and it disrupts her sleep, go back to whichever stage in the plan you think works best. You can sleep in her room if you want to keep an eye on her, but don't bring her in with you.

Naps - Do the same for naps as you do at night times only you can't sit there for as long as it takes - give it an hour and if she hasn't gone to sleep, get her up and feed her or do something different and try again a bit later. If she resists napping like this twice in a day you can resort to taking her out in the buggy or something. just so she gets a bit of sleep in the day. You are aiming at two solid naps a day by the way. If you've started this thing at bedtime the night before, the nap thing is usually not a problem. I can't think of anything else right now! By the way this is based on a Canadian lady's idea. I chose to use it because it doesn't mean leaving a baby to cry. They learn to fall asleep without you intervening, although you might argue that your presence is a sort of intervention, but before long you will find yourself saying goodnight and shutting the door, because she'd not taking any notice of you anymore!" ^

So for us the First night it took 3 hours 10mins, which is why for nightwakings later on that night I just fed her instead of sitting with her. Within the first few nights she woke LOADS less and then DH would go to her and he would just ask her to put her head down and she would and go straight back to sleep. Needless to say that sort of thing just wouldn't happen before. So if I remember rightly it was only after 4 or 5 nights that I stopped feeding her. The other thing we've found a bit hard is waiting a few mins before going in to her when she wakes. We just give it one or two minutes more than we'd usually do instead of waiting 10.

DH would like to add that he thinks the important thing is to teach DC to put their head down and close their eyes - he says' put your head down, put your head down, now close your eyes' and repeats it a bit like a mantra gently until DD does, and then stops as soon as she does what he says. He says for our 9month old that after a week she knows what it means and does what he suggests! He says that this is useful in the night and that's all he needs to do to get her to go back to sleep.

For the first night I recommend a large glass of wine that you take in with you. For the second night, have the bottle waiting for you on the table in the lounge. Also on the first night we both did it together for a bit of moral support and took it in turns but I'm assuming that none of you is as much as a wimp as I am.

I hope this isn't too much of a mess, my friend's writing is very clear, and mine is all over the shop. I'm just a bit enthusiastic about how its gone. I hope this is of use to someone.

OP posts:
slumberhungry · 10/05/2012 23:30

Fingers crossed for you, Secret.. I'm with you on the exclamation marks at getting evenings back.

Nectarina I only feed him for about 5 mins, but then he only ever feeds for 5 mins - he just scoffs quickly (it's totally different to my experience of bf-ing my dd). After these night feeds (as in daytime feeds) he throws himself into an arched back and pulls himself off. He only ever used to do this when awake before trying this technique. A couple of weeks ago he would just suckle more gently when he was going back to sleep but now he gives me his dramatic 'I'm done' gesture and passes out. I don't think I can feed him for any less time. I'm going to try holding him for about 5 mins and keep trying to gently wake him in case there's a period of 'milk drunkness' that wears off a bit....

TheSecretCervix · 11/05/2012 18:07

Thought I'd come back and update. DS slept from 7pm to 3am without waking at all - the biggest stretch of sleep he has ever done :) When he woke I gave him a feed (small steps) and then put him back in his cot awake. I had to stay with him for an hour whilst we had rolling, clapping etc but he finally fell asleep with minimal tears, he then woke at 5.30, I didn't have the energy to do another long sit out so I bought him into our bed! All-in-all a huge improvement.
I put him down for a morning nap and he fell asleep within 15 minutes and napped for an hour. He has been much happier and calmer today, which must be to do without him getting more sleep.
Hopefully it wasn't beginners luck - fingers crossed for tonight. Seeing results so quickly has made me feel very confident we can implement this and the fact that DS hasn't really cried at all makes me think he is ready for this too!

TheSecretCervix · 11/05/2012 18:08

with getting

CharlieMouseWillDoIt · 11/05/2012 22:18

I've been following this thread since the beginning, but haven't had the guts to try this technique until now. For months I've been bfing my DD (now 15 months) and then lying down on the bed with her until she falls asleep and then transferring her carefully into the cot.

4 nights ago, I tried putting her in the cot after the breastfeed. She protested slightly, but really not very much. I made sure I stayed very, very close to her and sang to her as usual. After an hour or so she started to lie down and fell asleep. Tonight it took about 45 minutes for her to settle, so going in the right direction.

I think I may have a slight "head start" on this technique as DD could already self-settle to sleep, but only with me lying next to her, so it is a breakthrough with her going to sleep alone in her cot.

Night-times have been improving too - although DD is still waking up in the night, she is sleeping longer (i.e. waking at 3am, rather than 1am).

I'll keep you informed as to how we get on.

Wishing everyone a good sleep :-) Night all.

DonkeyTeapot · 11/05/2012 22:19

Progress :) DD seems to have adjusted twell o the new bedtime routine, and the last two nights she has gone to sleep within about ten minutes, with no crying. I haven't stayed with her, as when I was staying in the room, she just kept sitting up and giving me big smiles and wanting to play. Last night when she did it I laid her back down and said "go to sleep now" and left the room, but stayed outside so I could hear. She didn't make a peep. Tonight she was quite playful and I wondered if she'd kick up a fuss, but she didn't, she lay down and I stayed for 30 seconds max, and left the room. I could hear her having a quiet chat with herself for two or three minutes, and that was it. She's still waking once or twice in the night so is still having a bottle then, sometimes it's 2am, sometimes it's 5am.

I am wondering about reducing the amount gradually, she normally takes about 150 - 180 ml, what does anyone think?

DonkeyTeapot · 11/05/2012 23:03

That should say "adjusted well to"

GoodbyeToAllThat · 12/05/2012 19:15

Sorry for piling in so late to this thread - I've been lurking ever since it started but found a million and one excuses not to try this out.

DD is 9 months, always been BF to sleep and never slept more than 3 hours without waking. Needless to say, I'm exhausted and desperate for a solution without having to leave her to cry it out alone - which was what our well meaning family and friends have been suggesting, but just isn't for us.

So, last night DH (I made him read the whole thread and he even took notes Grin) and I decided we would start this new way of helpIng DD to settle. We knew it was going to be grim and it really was tough. After 30 mins of DD rolling about and playing in the cot, we had an hour of wailing and crying so took it in turns to pick up, comfort and put down again. Usually, we would have given up after 5 mins and I would have fed her to sleep. But, just before 8, she fell asleep. We heard a few little whimpers during the evening but each time she settled herself,

Just after midnight she woke again and was clearly hungry so we repeated as above with another hour of crying. It was really hard to bear.

BUT she then slept through 'til 6am! And she was all smiles - I was worried she'd hate me!

Tonight was a miracle: I put her down, she played for a bit, started to cry and this time instead of picking her up I just started to sing to her. And she drifted off to sleep! From putting her down, it took 20 mins.

I know these are very early days, and I haven't even got through the second night yet but I wanted to share this for anyone else who, like me, was thinking this sounded great in theory but would never work. Just seeing DD drift off by herself tonight has been amazing!

Nectarina thank you do much for taking the time to share this and for all the follow-up advice you've been giving. When my HV talked about "gradual withdrawal techniques" my sleep-deprived brain just didn't get it but everything you've written makes so much sense. Will update and am keeping my fingers crossed for everyone else making this change - here's to better sleep for us all.

nectarina · 13/05/2012 19:14

slumberhungry how've you been getting on? I didn't really know what to suggest to be honest!
charliemouse and goodbye - well done, sounds like its going v. well! (and I'm enjoying mental image of DH taking notes. - I found that I had to read the technique back each night and I seemed to discover another thing that I wasn't quite doing right or had forgotten to do)
donkeyteapot have you tried reducing the amount of milk? I know some people have success watering the milk down, but I was still bf at the time and my method was sending in boobless OH.

OP posts:
slumberhungry · 13/05/2012 23:13

It's so encouraging to hear how well it's going for people...

I've been working harder at waking him up properly after his first night feed (around 11) and am seeing some success there, he does wake up better 5 mins after finishing feeding. It may be that I need to leave it longer during the night before going to him (he feels too young to be left 10 mins) and get DH involved in the early hours soon too. DH normally does evenings and gets up with our early riser DD.

3am onwards is still a big issue and I've ended up bringing him in to co-sleep at 5.30am where he'll sleep til 8am, just out of sheer exhaustion. He is v hungry in the day despite 3 night feeds (at least) and has a bit of a cold so I'll just roll with it all for a while.

For the moment I'm reminding myself of all the progress made and trying to get myself to spend the evenings sleeping!

DonkeyTeapot · 13/05/2012 23:30

Hi gang, hope it's going well for everyone. I don't want to jinx it but tonight and the last couple of nights she has not cried at all, just put her head down and gone to sleep!

I did reduce the milk to 120ml, I might just prepare 90ml for tonight and see how that goes.

nectarina · 14/05/2012 18:05

slumberhungry I think you're right to see these as flexible guidelines. If you're seeing some progress, then you have to congratulate yourself on that and not worry about the holy grail of sleeping 7-7 without a peep. I can't remember how old your dc is, but I think that 10mins is too long for any small child really. It feels like CC, which is not for ladies like us. Still, if baby is not ill or teething it is good to try to stop the reflex of jumping out of bed at the first cry. And to listen to the cry - I think I can decode DD better now.
donkeyteapot We haven't got to this point yet. DD still (after more than 4 months of doing this) makes a fuss about going to sleep. We keep wanting to do the gradual retreat but I wanted to wait until DD makes less of a fuss of it when one of us is in the room.
If anyone has any advice for me I would be very grateful...!

OP posts:
DonkeyTeapot · 14/05/2012 20:53

nectarina I think DD found it more of a distraction me being there, to be honest. She kept sitting up and smiling and being all lovely and cute, so I couldn't help but smile and interact with her! I certainly couldn't get my phone out or do anything like that, no way she'd settle if she saw I had something she wants :)

Do you think if you left the room for a minute or two she'd get upset? I'm just wondering if it might work swapping things around. You're waiting for her to settle easier before you try leaving the room, but maybe if you did leave the room she might settle easier? I don't know, just an idea. Not suggesting leaving her if she does cry, btw, just wondering if it's worth seeing what happens if you just popped out for a moment.

Frankly I'm stunned to be where we are with DD's sleep just now, I thought all hell would break loose when we stopped feeding her to sleep.

nectarina · 15/05/2012 16:41

donkeyteapot
there's no doubt whatsoever that my presence is a distraction - but when I leave the room she screams. So I don't really know what's for the best.

OP posts:
Bicnod · 15/05/2012 19:47

Hello, can I join the party? DS2 is 10 months old and has never slept through. Usually wakes 2 to 5 times a night, I usually bf him sometime between 3 and 5 and want to move that to wake up time (anything with a 6 in it fine by me!). Always cuddled to sleep.

DS1 was a dreadful sleeper and didn't sleep well til 22 months...I really don't want a repeat performance!

Thank you nectarina for this thread, I think it could be my salvation (and save DS2 from being thrown out of the window at 2am)

Were on day 2 and so far so good. DS2 settled in cot at bedtime yesterday in 15 mins Shock with singing and back rubbing from me and some crying from him. Woke at 21.15 and took half an hour to settle, cuddled to sleep as he was properly screaming by 20 mins and I couldn't take it :( then heard him settle himself at midnight Shock, DH settled him in cot at 4.20 (took 50 mins) then up and morning feed at 6.45am!

Tonight he took 35 mins to fall asleep but NO crying and minimal intervention from me. fingers crossed for a good night tonight.

I am determined to crack this. I am so exhausted all the time I feel like a crap mummy to both my boys... this HAS to work.

All your positive stories give me hope so thanks to all of you!

nectarina · 16/05/2012 16:46

bicnod you're very welcome. Well done on your rapid success.

OP posts:
Bicnod · 17/05/2012 10:02

I literally can't believe I'm typing this. DS2 has slept through the last two nights, and last night he only took 10 mins to settle himself and no crying!

Nectarina thank you thank you thank you so much or posting this, I know we're likely to have relapses but at least I know he can do it!

Weirdly I actually feel more tired than usual Confused

These Thanks are for you nectarina Grin

Tertius · 17/05/2012 20:33

VERY encouraged by Bicnod...

Once this bout of teething and weird nap transition is over I will be having a go with dd who is 9 months. Really want a nights sleep soon!

But how do you do gradual withdrawal if you have another dc? I can't spend ages putting the baby to bed. Do you think if I do a very very mild cc for bedtime - in and out every 2 minutes - then I could use the sitting next to her in the night?

And Bicnod, do you think the fact that your baby was used to not getting s feed til 3 meant it was easier? My dd gets a feed from 1am. I should try and push this onwards.

At the moment she is being terrible.... Trying to transition to one nap but not managing it, waking all night and being hard to get back to sleep... I am slightly despairing so was very heartened to read Bicnod's good news! (I am afraid I recognise Bicnod's name from 3 years ago when I was having a similar time with my first?) he was better than my daughter though!

Shardlake · 18/05/2012 00:55

Another new starter here :) I'm going to try this tonight, so so good to hear all the positive stories.

Our DD (first baby) is nearly 9 months and I have always fed her to sleep - at least since she was a few weeks old, anyway - for both nighttime and naps. She was a great sleeper at around 3-4 months old, guaranteed 8 hour stretches every night, but that feels like a LONG time ago now! She wakes at least every 2-3 hours, very often more frequently than that, and is increasingly difficult to settle in her cot as the night goes on, so for the past few months I have always ended up with her in bed with me by morning (in a bed in her room). Not good for either of us as she isn't getting enough sleep either, and I miss sleeping with her dad!

Will let you know how we get on, thanks so much for posting Nectarina.

Shardlake · 18/05/2012 00:57

By 'tonight' I mean Friday night - am posting from the future (NZ)!

StrawberryMojito · 18/05/2012 04:59

Hi, we are reaching the end of our tethers after 7 months of frequent night waking, unintentional co-sleeping, bf to sleep etc and want to give this a go. DS is currently teething and we go on holiday in 4 weeks. Should we start doing it now or wait until we return from holiday? There always seems to be reasons to put it off.

nectarina · 18/05/2012 07:33

shardlake and tertius good luck! do let us know how it goes.
strawberrymojito I'd say unless DS is actually cutting a tooth, I'd wait a night or two, but if you mean the low-level teething that doesn't really end, I wouldn't wait.
As for holiday - definitely don't wait! You'll be very glad you didn't.
Bicnod wow!

OP posts:
Bicnod · 18/05/2012 11:47

Hi other newbies :)

Tertius - yep, that was me with the incredible non-sleeping DS1. And now I'm back haunting the sleep threads again with DS2 Confused sorry that you're here too, although nice to see you!

Last night was night 3 and DS2 settled with a bit of shhhing but no touching and no crying in 15 mins. He woke once at 4.20am and I managed to settle him back to sleep without feeding him. Did have to give him a cuddle as his cries were ramping up but he fell asleep in his cot after that with shhing and a bit of back stroking until 6.30am. So although he didn't do a hat trick of sleeping through it was still a bloody good night.

Tertius - I think pushing back the early morning feed probably helped a bit, but to be honest he didn't seem that bothered about settling without it last night. I'm genuinely astounded at how well this method had worked so far. I think sometimes we poor sleep-deprived parents are to scared to change anything in case it gets worse.

Tertius · 18/05/2012 13:19

Im definitely too scared to do anything - hate to hear her cry, don't want to lose any more sleep, some how can't manage the logistics with 2 children (getting her to nap enough or go to bed without falling asleep on the boob).

And also I do smallsteps - putting down awake and trying to not pick up in night. But then straight away she gets ill or teethes. It's almost a joke!

But I really want some sleep before I go back to work

Will it work if I confuse the issue with cc at bedtime (v mild version) and sitting by her in the night?.

nectarina · 18/05/2012 18:29

tertius no you won't confuse the issue as its unlikely your DD will be wondering why you're combining two different sleep techniques! I'm imagining that you'll do something a bit like the last stage of the technique where you'll be going in and out to reassure baby, tidying up, doing imaginary errands and so on, in and out of her room. You'll have to let us know how you get on - I always wonder how people do these sorts of things with 2 children.

OP posts:
Tertius · 18/05/2012 18:50

Exactly. Thanks nectarina. That's what I have done before.

My main trouble with dd is keeping her awake on the feed. I do it in the light after the bath and book... Don't want to move it to before the bath as I like her to go to bed relaxed - bath etc is a bit frantic with toddler. But she invariably falls asleep after one minutes feeding.