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What worked for us. Hope this helps.

870 replies

nectarina · 29/01/2012 21:03

This post is going to be massive - no apologies however.

So I've posted at least 5 queries about DD's sleep and read about 1 billion threads, because DD only napped for 30mins in the day, would only BF to sleep (since a newborn I wanted to get out of the habit, but nothing else did it). She spent the first 5 months in her cot, only for us to end up co-sleeping so we could get a bit of rest. She would BF every 2 hours at least in the night, and by the end she'd wake every half hour before we went to bed. I knew I couldn't do CC/CIO, I'm not strong enough even if I thought that was the right thing to do, but I thought that I would be forced to if things carried on the way they were.

We read No Cry Sleep Solution, which is complicated and didn't work for us.

So a friend had tried a technique, that she recommended and I thought that it was too much of a leap for DD, but i kept the email, and one evening I sort of snapped and decided that IT WAS TIME. DD was 8 1/2months. I don't know from what age this technique is recommended, but I don't think I'd have wanted to do this earlier, as you still have to cope with the baby crying. I knew DD was ready because now she quite clearly has two cries - one properly sad and scared, the other a bit shouty and put on, so when doing this technique you know what's going on (but I'd like to add that I still comforted DD when she was shouty - she's still trying to say something, but I deÞ nitely wouldn't pick her up and panic!)

I'll paste her email to me, hoping she won't mind. We didn't do it in the ten days, as it was just a bit too much, but i wonder if the way we did it made things a bit complicated. So I recommend doing it as laid out.

But now DD takes 20mins to fall asleep by herself (with one of us in her room) in her cot, in her room. and I do not feed at all between 7pm and 7am. Dh goes in in the night and he gives her water in case she's thirsty but she's quite happy without. It takes him no more than about 3mins to resettle her (unless ill).

After starting this at the beginning of January she still wakes up once or twice a night but it doesn't affect me as I wear earplugs and DH goes in! ha ha ha! (I still hear her and wake up, but I don't wake up fully and find it difFicult to go back to sleep) Do I need to tell you how I feel like a different woman?

So here's the email -

^"Ok, this is a plan thing that we first tried with dc1 when we got to the point where we knew something had to change. There seems to come a point where not only do you get tired of 'helping' your baby get to sleep, but whatever you do seems to work less and less - as if they know something has to change too! It takes a bit of work for about ten days or so but mostly the first couple of days you really put your back into it and then it gets easier. I remember vaguely doing it with dc1 and have just rediscovered it with Dc2 she is a bit of a firecracker so I was expecting trouble but babies love to learn something new, especially around this age and she only woke once last night despite having a cold, which is a HUGE improvement. Dc1 found this very easy and never shed a tear. Dc2 screamed 'TRAITOR!!' at me many times during the first night (she does that a lot), so I'm not saying that there won't be some crying because you will be doing something different to before but you don't have to leave her side and can reassure her as much as you need to, physically and verbally.
The idea is that you are no longer going to help her go to sleep - in whatever way - if you rock her, feed her, jiggle her, whatever it is. You can be there and reassure her but it is no longer your job to MAKE her go to sleep. It is your job to support her whilst she does it herself.
First of all, you know that thing that everyone says about having a bedtime routine (which I imagine you already have) is utterly true. By the time they are a toddler, the sound of a running bath is enough to set the bedtime clock going. When you choose to do this thing, it is really important to stick to your bedtime routine without fail for the ten days and it needs to be between 20 and 45 minutes long. Also, this plan also applies to naps, so you need to be able to be at home for naptimes - just until Dd has the thing established - ten days usually does it. Lastly, you are aiming for Dd to be in bed by 7ish in the evening and not much later. If you're like me you're knackered by about half four, so starting bedtime at a quarter past six is no trouble. You've probably done all that so on to the plan. I'll do bedtimes first and then naps.

Day 1, 2 and 3 - Place a chair right next to the cot. Make it a comfortable chair, you may get to know it fairly well. Have a duvet, cushions, iphone, book to hand. Do your bedtime routine and put Dd in the cot awake. She may well not know what to do next and try all sorts of things. If she stands up you can gently pop her back down again but only a few times - if she insists on standing for a bit then let her - it may just be one of those things she incorporates into her own burgeoning routine, and I daresay she is capable of getting back down again by now. You can pat the bed to let her know you want her to lie down. Sooner or later she is likely to sit down for a bit and eventually plop on to her front. She has to find her own way through this so she may try eating her blanket or playing with a toy before she lies down - that's up to her. If she cries, you can pat her and speak to her. As long as you remember that your patting and comforting is not there to get her to sleep, just to help her calm down in this new and confusing situation so as soon as she starts to settle, lighten your touch with a view to taking your hand off her, and stop speaking. She may go back and forth a bit needing you to touch and speak to her a few more times, but each time lessen your touch when she has settled. Stay there until she has fallen fast asleep and creep out. This bit can take ten minutes for some babies, but most fall asleep after 45 minutes. Two hours is the longest on record! I expected Dc2 to be a two hour effort but no - 45 minutes almost exactly. As long as you know that it is going to take that long, you can get through it. When she wakes up in the night, you do exactly the same thing, each and every time. The first few times she wakes, she will probably yell for you, but as she gets the idea that she can drift back to sleep herself, she may just squeak and go back (sounds unlikely? I thought that too.) The idea is that as time goes on you can wait a tiny bit longer before you go in, to give her the opportunity to practise her new skill.

Days 4, 5 and 6 - move the chair a few feet away from the cot. Keep everything else the same except you are further away. Once you have had your bedtime cuddle and put her in the cot sit down. You can still go to her if she really needs you, and you can still speak to her but she may not need as much help by now. Again, wait until she is asleep before you leave. Repeat as often as necessary when she wakes although, again, leave it a few minutes before you go in.

Days 7, 8 and 9 - move the chair to the door or the other side of the room. Make sure she can still see you, but once you have settled her in her cot and gone to the chair try not to go to her unless she has got herself into a daft position and can't get out. By now she will start developing her own strategy to get to sleep, and you will be able to tell what stage she is at, because you've been watching it all the way through.

Day 10 - you have several choices. If you think things are going really well and baby can cope with you not being there you can leave the room and see how she gets on. You can hover by the door out of sight and watch what happens, and reassure her with your voice. If you feel apprehensive about it and think she needs longer you can try the Bustle - instead of sitting down, tinker about in her room, cleaning up or folding washing or whatever. Or you can continue in the chair. The idea of the plan is ultimately for you to be able to plonk and go, but I quite like spending that extra time with DC so I use a mixture of the bustle and the chair. For night wakings you now really have to give her the chance to go back on her own. Wait ten minutes ( I know - such a long time!) before you go in. I got up last night to Þ nd by the time I got to DC's door, she'd already curled up again! That's the main brunt of it. Just bear in mind that the first couple of nights are the worst - she might wake more frequently, but stick at it and you'll see an improvement. The other thing is that when they start sleeping longer in the night they get up properly a bit too early in the morning - but this usually improves over a few weeks as they get the hang of sleeping. I've kind of assumed that you are going to move her into her own room - there's no reason you can't start this as soon as you move her in. If DC get ill and it disrupts her sleep, go back to whichever stage in the plan you think works best. You can sleep in her room if you want to keep an eye on her, but don't bring her in with you.

Naps - Do the same for naps as you do at night times only you can't sit there for as long as it takes - give it an hour and if she hasn't gone to sleep, get her up and feed her or do something different and try again a bit later. If she resists napping like this twice in a day you can resort to taking her out in the buggy or something. just so she gets a bit of sleep in the day. You are aiming at two solid naps a day by the way. If you've started this thing at bedtime the night before, the nap thing is usually not a problem. I can't think of anything else right now! By the way this is based on a Canadian lady's idea. I chose to use it because it doesn't mean leaving a baby to cry. They learn to fall asleep without you intervening, although you might argue that your presence is a sort of intervention, but before long you will find yourself saying goodnight and shutting the door, because she'd not taking any notice of you anymore!" ^

So for us the First night it took 3 hours 10mins, which is why for nightwakings later on that night I just fed her instead of sitting with her. Within the first few nights she woke LOADS less and then DH would go to her and he would just ask her to put her head down and she would and go straight back to sleep. Needless to say that sort of thing just wouldn't happen before. So if I remember rightly it was only after 4 or 5 nights that I stopped feeding her. The other thing we've found a bit hard is waiting a few mins before going in to her when she wakes. We just give it one or two minutes more than we'd usually do instead of waiting 10.

DH would like to add that he thinks the important thing is to teach DC to put their head down and close their eyes - he says' put your head down, put your head down, now close your eyes' and repeats it a bit like a mantra gently until DD does, and then stops as soon as she does what he says. He says for our 9month old that after a week she knows what it means and does what he suggests! He says that this is useful in the night and that's all he needs to do to get her to go back to sleep.

For the first night I recommend a large glass of wine that you take in with you. For the second night, have the bottle waiting for you on the table in the lounge. Also on the first night we both did it together for a bit of moral support and took it in turns but I'm assuming that none of you is as much as a wimp as I am.

I hope this isn't too much of a mess, my friend's writing is very clear, and mine is all over the shop. I'm just a bit enthusiastic about how its gone. I hope this is of use to someone.

OP posts:
Pudgy2011 · 20/03/2012 17:29

Quick update - Didn't hear a peep out of DS after 8.30pm until his usual wakenings at 4am. I heard him call out but it was more moans for attention than anything. Then all went quiet for 10 minutes and I started rejoycing only for him to start calling out again so I went in and found him wide awake kicking his crib mobile buttons to change the music. I sat with him for 40 minutes and he finally fell asleep but didn't cry once, just little moans. He woke again 10 minutes later and my husband resettled him again. Each time we resettled with the dummy so tonight I think we'll go cold turkey as our main problem is him waking at 4am and not being able to go back to sleep without it.
I'm going to grit my teeth through the next few nights as I'm living in (perhaps false) hope that by the weekend he will be going through the night without wakings, or at least being able to settle himself without the need for us to grope frantically around his crib in the dark for his dummy!
I think because he doesn't need the dummy except when settling to sleep, it might be easier to break now at 6 months, than further down the line. Here's hoping.

nectarina · 20/03/2012 19:48

oovoofwelcome you're right that what you've been doing is a more gentle way in (for you as well as DS) so you can be glad of that.
As for waking him for a dream feed, I wouldn't really. If the goal is getting them to sleep through I wouldn't get into the habit of waking them up.
What I would do is use your judgement with each waking if you should feed or not. It doesn't matter if you feed DS, just make sure its not to sleep. We did this with DD and she cut out all the feeds of her own accord (she was 71/2 months i think). I've put on loads of weight though since then as she must have been feeding an extra 10 times at night. She however has been gaining steadily (I was worried that she would drop centiles if I stopped at night)
pudgy yep - get rid of the dummy. It'll be easier now than further down the line, and you'll reduce night wakings. Expect that things might get worse before they get better.

OP posts:
nectarina · 20/03/2012 19:57

watermint thanks for sharing that - lots of people are saying the same, that things seem to go up the spout for no reason the 2nd or 3rd night (or other) but nothing is undone.
As for DHs and DPs - well, the ideal is if they read the technique too. What is hard though is sometimes something that makes sense in the day seems ludicrous at night. I think on the first night it helps if you can both get up together (does this sound like madness?) for each night waking.

Just to give my own update - two and a bit months since we started and DD sleeps 7pm - 7am 5 nights a week, with probably one waking the other two nights. If she's teething she'll wake two or three times for maybe two nights for each tooth. Now when she wakes up I quite like the stolen cuddle of it.
Naps however are another story... anyone else having problems with naps?

OP posts:
KittyBump · 20/03/2012 20:56

Well I tried to start again last night but it was a big fail. I fed till sleepy then put her in the cot and she got her self up and started crying which turned into screaming then eventually long sobs, I sat with her singing, occasionally lying her back down and shhhing but she got worse and worse. After a terrible hour I gave in, I think it's the doubt of not knowing if she is fully better after her cold.
So she ended up in my bed again and has been waking every 45 minutes. I think she is thirsty as she is drinking more in the day, possibly due to her cold.
I have tried giving her water but this sends her crazy! Also tried calpol but she spots it out straight away :( I feel like i'll never get my nights back.

KittyBump · 20/03/2012 20:57

Spits

Pudgy2011 · 21/03/2012 01:07

OK, so we've deviated slightly from the plan as we took DS's dummy away tonight. Cue lots of screaming, histrionics, sobbing and general beating of chest. After 20 minutes of my husband rubbing his back and ssshhing him to no avail, I finally caved and picked him up but didn't give him his dummy. He finally fell asleep after 45 minutes (still voicing his displeasure by the way!)

I'm happy to pick him up to soothe him and calm him down instead of leaving him in the crib, especially as he has no dummy and this is a big step for him. I will continue through the night to help resettle him without the dummy, even if he does wake at 4am.
Once he can sleep without itI think the rest of it should fall into place and if it doesn't come naturally, then I will follow Nectarina's methods.

When it comes to naps, I'll just have to ask his daycare to just help him fall asleep without the dummy tomorrow. As it is, they put him in a bouncy chair to help him settle so probably not much different!

nectarina · 21/03/2012 14:32

Kittybump its not going to work if you put her to bed sleepy I'm afraid. Move the feed earlier in the routine, read or sing and cuddle afterwards and put baby to bed alert.
Pudgy sounds like the worst is over now, well done you. Wine was my best friend for a while.....

OP posts:
rrreow · 21/03/2012 15:14

What's this thing with 4-4.30am?? It seems to be a time that keeps being mentioned, and it's exactly when DS also wakes up inconsolable and usually takes at least 30 minutes of talking/patting to go back to sleep. Independent of what time he goes to sleep or whether he's slept until then or woken up before then..

Something that seems to work for our DS at that point in time is actually to acknowledge his feelings. I've been reading the Happiest Toddler book, which overall I find a bit average and repetitive, but the technique it describes of reflecting back your DCs feelings and using some of the intensity seems really helpful.

You basically try to give voice to the feeling DC is experiencing, you put it into very basic terms (so rather than saying "I hear you are very sad" you say "sad sad sad!") as it argues that very upset kids don't process language very well, and use some of the same intensity (although obviously not the same volume..) to say it back. I was initially a bit wary of raising my voice above a whisper in the middle of the night, but after trying it a few times it actually WORKS and made DS calm down much quicker (I'd say stuff like "No no no sleep! DS doesn't want sleep!" or "DS scared!" or whatever). I don't know how much of the language he actually understands (he's 10 months) but the reflecting back the intensity seems to make him feel more understood maybe (?). Anyway, I know we're all desperately trying to find what works, so I thought I'd share this if people wanted to give it a try.

Nessler · 21/03/2012 19:45

arrrgh! Having progressed initially we are now back to large scale protests from DS, lots of shouting- tonight (6th night) so far has been 45 mins and counting, he is closing his eyes, settling and then opening them and having another shout. Same thing happened last night when he woke at 9.30pm and we ended up rocking to sleep after an hour of no success in the cot!

Anyone else go backwards after feeling like it was working? I am still having to stand close to the cot and do the odd stroking/singing. Feel knackered and DS (6.5 months) is taking so long to settle that he's getting less sleep and overtired as result.

Feel like a useless mum- how do I fix this?

OovoofWelcome · 21/03/2012 21:57

Wow, rreow, that's so interesting. It feels counterintuitive because the natural thing is to be as calm and quiet as possible, so it's fascinating to read that your DS was calmed by you reflecting and acknowledging his mood.

Pudgy2011 · 22/03/2012 02:35

Well last night was utterly brutal. After screaming and crying for 45 minutes at 7pm, DS fell asleep but woke again at his 10pm feed. Bless him, he was wide awake when he went back in the crib, rolled around cooing for a bit and then finally fell asleep with no dummy and no protest at 11.45pm.
Anyway, he woke at 3am and apparently forgot that he'd gone to sleep without a dummy and screamed his head off... for 2 hours. He was so tired, he almost fell asleep but kept himself awake moaning. Finally, he fell back to sleep just after 5am but it was really hard work.
His carers at nursery carried on with the training today and helped him fall asleep without the dummy in the swing and bouncy chair and apparently he got better at falling asleep as the day went on. When I collected him, they said to be strong and continue with it, the first day is out the way and it will get easier - I'm very grateful for their vote of confidence I'll admit!

He finished his last feed just after 7pm and even though he fussed for a bit, he didn't properly scream, just more moans and he finally fell asleep just after 8pm and has been down since then. I heard him moan at about 8.45pm but he settled again.
Once again I'm dreading the 3-4am wake up, but with any luck it won't take as long for him to fall back to sleep. I'm hoping that because he didn't fall asleep until after 8pm, he'll sleep longer. I know it doesn't work that way but I can live in hope!

Mjtay · 22/03/2012 07:15

I've just had a good old catch up on u all!!I'm afraid I
Can't remember all the points risen! I will say it is sooooo worth persevering! The last 3 nights i haven't been given the chance to leave the room and see what happens! It's like me doing up her sleeping bag is getting in the way of her trying to sleep! Last 2 nights asleep in seconds! Night before 3 mins!! Last night we did bath,massage, book and asleep all in half an hour!

Yes naps are trickier! This week I have been putting DD in her cot if were at home! She doesn't generally cry, just playsnsnd moans till she falls asleep. But still only for 30-45 mins! Day before last I put her in her cot for her late afternoon nap, and just wouldn't go to sleep. She was actually crying, and I had to start dinner. So I tried her swing, she cried again! So I was trying to chop potatoes while DD attached to my hip! She then went in her jumparoo while we ate! Happy as u like! Then bath, massage, story! She had been awake since 3 and put down at 7.30 (she normally needs a sleep after 2 hours!) I was dreading it knowing how she was in her cot in the avo AND being overtired!! But she was asleep in seconds! Like she was relieved! "ah thank god mummy, uve finally put me in my cot!!! I can go to sleep atlast!"

Hubby and I even went out for a meal with friends sat nite, as DD is rarely waking in the eve anymore. PIL saw her stir on her monitor, but always self settled!!! AMAZING!!!!

With regards to the 4 wake up! My DD generally sleeps thro now! But if she does wake and cry, then I stroke her next to her cot. At the weekend she woke one night at 2 and the next at 4.30 and wouldn't stop crying... She was actually hungry! In fact first night she took 8oz bottle and 1 breast too!! Growth spurt perhaps!? Back to sleeping thro now. So is this possibly the problem with some of u?!

I'm gonna stop gassing now!! Just keep going.... It's the very best thing!!! And I'm soooo proud of my little girl. Thank u so so sooooo mh h nectarina!! Xx

ct148 · 22/03/2012 16:08

I'd been doing this for a couple of weeks and was absolutely amazed at the difference in my DS at night time! He went from co sleeping and waking pretty much every hour to waking only once or twice! Hardly crying at all when we put him in his cot. I was really hopeful.
But....at the weekend we went to stay with the in laws for a couple of nights. And since we got back home we have gone back to square one :(
he cries when we put him down and wakes up loads. I wonder if we should just start from the beginning again? very depressing because i bet this means that every time we have to go and see them i have to listen to him getting upset when we get back home :( it was horrible enough the first time...

Pudgy2011 · 23/03/2012 02:15

So after sitting with DS from 12.45am until 4.10am this morning, when I eventually succumbed and fed him, followed by spectacularly oversleeping and being late for work, I have finally caved.

I've had it, I can't face another night of uncontrollable and prolonged screaming whilst he tries to settle without his dummy. I put him down tonight at 7pm after his feed and it's now 9.15pm and he's still awake. His crib is now filled with 17 dummies so I'm banking on him being able to find at least one!
Once he starts to find them himself he can start to soothe himself when he wakes.
I know I managed 2 full days and nights without the dummy and I've really taken a step back but the thought of another night trying to soothe him unsuccessfully brought tears to my eyes.
Good luck everyone!

Blippy · 23/03/2012 03:07

Just wondering has anyone tried this with a just 5 month old? Having real problems at night. Have been doing pick up put down and seem to be feeding lots in the night. She wakes like every 45 minutes to an hour and I am just shattered! I know little one will need to feed in the night but not as much as she is!!!!

majorsforminors · 23/03/2012 07:03

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Fevrier · 23/03/2012 10:09

Ct148 - how old is your baby? This is what is hard about all sleep training I found, they regress and you have to do it again but generally it's quicker subsequent times... And easier as they get older. All of it gets easier the older, I found.

I have been settling my dd (7.5) months in her cot with pick ups and pats and rocking the cot and that stopped her waking hourly and now she is up twice (more when teething). Definitely what made the difference was where she fell asleep but it was okay to help her a bit.....

lilysma · 23/03/2012 14:26

Hi everyone, sorry if I've missed it, but has anyone tried the equivalent of this and continued to have their DC sleep in their bed or in their room. I would really like to continue co-sleeping in some form but need to reduce DS's wakings (every 90 mins or so). He's 8 months and I'm beginning to get tired (grin).

lagartija · 23/03/2012 15:48

what did majorsforminors say? .

nectarina · 23/03/2012 17:25

lilysma I don't see why it shouldn't work actually, since all this is is a way of teaching baby to go to sleep by themselves. You might not get as dramatic results because you're more likely to disturb their sleep; but i should think it would work. You could lie next to them as they go to sleep but silently and without stroking (unless they're upset of course). Try it and let us know how it works.
I would also like to know what majors said!

OP posts:
ecuse · 23/03/2012 18:12

Hi everyone. I found this thread last week and had just started implementing (my version of) it when my DD got a vomiting bug. Back on it tonight hopefully. Haven't read the whole thread but what's the problem with doing this but leaving them a dummy? My DD is quite good at popping her dummy back in without really waking up - it's one of the few ways she does self settle so I'm not keen to take it away from her without good reason! She always sleeps on her left side so I clip it to the right hand shoulder of her sleeping bag. She knows it's always there so can run her hand from her shoulder along the ribbon until she finds it and pop it back in her mouth without properly waking up. Sometimes! Maybe that could work for you, pudgy?

The major thing that I want to achieve is getting her to self settle at night and wean her off her night feed (anywhere between 2am and 5am). I wouldn't really mind that but sometimes she's wide awake and ready tto play after it. She's perfectly cheerful as long as I don't put her back down, but she'll sit on my knee blowing bubbles and kicking around for 2hours sometime. I'm going back yo work in 3weeks and really can't cope with that on top of full time job.

Oh, she's almost 11 months old and she's still in a cot at the foot of the bed as we're still in a one bed flat until we move in two months or so.

Anyway she almost always falls asleep during her last bottle feed and goes down easily so it's really just the night waking I want to deal with. First night took an hour and a half at 3am. Second night took 20 minutes at 5am. Wish me luck for tonight!!

OovoofWelcome · 23/03/2012 20:18

Majorsforminors just posted an advert for their website. Nothing juicy!

lilysma · 23/03/2012 20:49

Thanks Nectarina. I'm going to wait until after Easter when I will be going away so don't want to have to start all over again afterwards. DS is starting to go to sleep by himself some nights - i.e. he feeds and then when he's had enough he either plays for a bit and goes to sleep or just rolls over and goes to sleep. He sometimes does that in the night too, but it doesn't seem to impact on how often he wakes up. My main concern is how to manage to get him back to sleep on his own on each waking because there are so many that I suspect I won't get any sleep at all if I have to be fully awake for each one. At the moment I just feed him half asleep for most of them. I can keep it up for a night or two but I'm not sure how long it will take before they start reducing a bit. Has anyone been there and can offer any reassurance?! I'll let you all know how I get on...

nectarina · 24/03/2012 16:02

lilysma - hmmm, feel free to ignore me, but I can't help feeling that if your DS can get himself to sleep easily, the reason he's waking frequently in the night is 1. the availability of your boobs and 2. you inadvertently waking him in the night. I've got a feeling it might not work unless he is in his own bed. If you'd like to continue co-sleeping I'd just carry on doing as you are, and enjoy it while it lasts....Smile

OP posts:
Ginfox · 27/03/2012 17:01

Just wanted to bump this thread. We started last night and it was tough, but I hadn't appreciated that dd needs to be properly awake when she goes into the cot. I was putting her in when she was dozy, and she was waking up and getting upset. Trying again tonight!

Also wanted to thank Nectarina for taking the time to write the OP, and for helping everyone so much.

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