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Controlled crying AAAAAAAAAAARGH!

131 replies

blackchloe · 05/11/2011 18:45

Please help me. I am in such a pickle with this controlled crying game. I have done this for 3 nights on the trot with my 6 month old with no improvement. She wakes at 2am for a feed which is fine but I have introduced CC because she then wont settle back down to sleep. She had previously been coming into bed with me at 2am and she would settle immediately but only till 4.30am. So after extensive reading I decide to try CC. 5mins, 10 mins then every 15 mins. However she is a stubborn little thing and will not settle . This can go on for 3 HOURS! And then by that point she is ready for her next bottle as its nearly morning. Anyone got any advice? Should I pursue it tonight or just resign myself to the fact that this sleep training method does not work with her. I should point out that this is the last method available as I have tried all the other more gentler methods of sleep training. This CC method means she is exhausted in the day and therefore sleeping more which means she is not so tired at night.

OP posts:
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RitaMorgan · 05/11/2011 22:40

Read Rollerbaby's post.

BillyBottomcheek · 05/11/2011 22:41

Rita, it's letting a 6 month old cry for up to 3 hours.

BillyBottomcheek · 05/11/2011 22:42

X-posts -sorry :)

EricNorthmansMistress · 05/11/2011 22:58

OK - fair dos - well I can't say I agree with how that poster did things, that's Crying It Out rather than CC, so not what we are discussing.

banana87 · 05/11/2011 22:58

Sleep consultant at 4 months? Really? And what are their qualifications? My degree in psychology tells me letting a 4 month old cry for 25 minutes means they soon learn that no one is there to answer their cries do they stop Sad

CailinDana · 05/11/2011 23:06

Your DD sounds very like my DS. Is she a big child by any chance? My DS is a big baby and very hungry. I was starting to lose the plot a bit when he was 6 months as he was doing exactly the same thing as your DD - waking at 1/2 for feed, going back to sleep with me in the bed and then waking for the day at around 4.30/5. I seriously considered CC but I could just tell that it wouldn't work with him, he still needed the closeness in the early hours to sleep. I just muddled through as best I could and when he hit 10 months recently I realised that he was actually becoming uncomfortable sleeping with me and that feeding him wasn't quite doing the trick with getting him to sleep. It was immediately obvious that he was ready to go to sleep on his own so I tried CC one night and it took him only 15 minutes to drop off on his own (having only ever been fed to sleep before). He woke once in the night, whinged briefly, then went back to sleep. We had a few nights of short crying bursts when going to bed but that was it he suddenly started sleeping 7-5 every night. I would rather he slept later than 5, and I did try CC at 5 for a few mornings, but again it was obvious that it wasn't going to work and it'll be another few months before he's ready for that.

It seems to me that your DD genuinely isn't ready yet. Crying for 3 hours indicates real confusion and distress rather than an inability to settle. For my DS it was clear that he was so used to me coming in to him that he just never had a chance to settle on his own and so the CC gave him that chance and he took it. I think your DD just might not have the skills yet.

Out of interest, does your DD sleep on her stomach? I only ask because my DS just would not settle himself on his back, but then suddenly he turned over on his belly and it was like a switch went, he was asleep. Now every night he has a very short whinge until he finds his stomach then it's bam! asleep. Until your DD can find a way to make herself comfortable by herself like that she just won't find a way to settle I'm afraid. I'd say leave it for now and try again later.

MildlyNarkyPuffin · 05/11/2011 23:51

Leaving a baby to cry raises cortisol levels. It's not a good thing. If you're determined to do CC at least stay in the room so she can see she's not alone.

Rollerbaby · 06/11/2011 07:19

Rita the poster asked for advice based on our experiences, so you can take your ffs judgey tone elsewhere. I consulted a very well known woman who has helped hundreds of parents and whose quals are more impressive then a psychology degree. I didn't ask for your approval. I had a 100th percentile baby who simply didn't need to eat in the night and we made the decision to help him learn to sleep. It was the best decision I made and I am glad I did it when I did taking little more than half an hour on one occasion. He is the happiest little boy and sleeps well every single night. I'm certainly not berating myself for doing something that makes him happy and well rested. What you choose to do is your own concern.

ballstoit · 06/11/2011 08:36

What were the qualifications, RollerBaby? I think that's what Rita wanted to know?

ShowOfHands · 06/11/2011 09:51

Rollerbaby, centiles are irrelevant, not sure why you mention them. How do you know your 4 month old baby didn't need food in the night? Could he tell you he wasn't hungry? The thing is, his only method of communication was crying and you chose to ignore that, so who knows what he was telling you. And you say 'we made sure he wasn't hungry first'. Many, many 4 month olds need nightfeeds and this is normal and even if your baby didnt then so what? What about thirst? Hot? Cold? Lonely? Frightened? Confused? Simply not tired?

I'm not surprised that babies fall asleep after 45 minutes of cio. I'd be bloody exhausted if I cried bodily for three quarters of an hour and the person I loved most in the world sat in another room and ignored me. You cannot justify the use of cio in a 4 month old by saying 'well he's a happy baby now'. Well I have two extremely happy children and at no point have I ever had to leave them defenceless and alone while I ignored their basic needs. I would never take that risk. I think you have a happy child despite the decision you made. It worried me that people genuinely don't seem to know what a 4 month old baby is. To expect them not only to self settle, but to insist that they do a full night's sleep at a time you choose is baffling. They're tiny. They are absolutely vulnerable. I don't know why we are so willing to ignore the emotional needs of a baby. I wouldn't leave an adult to cry alone in the night.

In some ways I don't care what other people do with their babies. And yes it's your choice. But I don't think for a second when you're practising something absolutely not-recommended, with proven negatives on a tiny 4 month old baby, then I absolutely refuse to think it's a valid choice. And any 'professional' recommending you leave a 4 month old to cio, I wouldn't trust with my goldfish.

Research tells us that 4/5/6mo is extremely difficult as a time of development. Their sleep is often fragmented and they seem unsettled a lot of the time in the day, frustrated, grizzly and whingy. It's not to do with the amount of sleep they're having, it's developmental. It's a really bloody difficult bit of parenting and when they're already going through enormous physical and emotional change, which is absolutely tangible, you also foist upon them nights of being ignored until they give up and stop asking.

banana87 · 06/11/2011 09:57

I also want to know what professional body/organization oversees such "sleep consultants". BPA? I doubt it very much. And what training does one undertake to become a "sleep expert"? Sounds like a complete load of money grabbing bullshite to me, and it's the innocent baby who is left to suffer. Glad you are getting your "much needed" sleep now as a result.

Rollerbaby · 06/11/2011 10:29

Oh dear, here we go... I certainly did not leave my baby to "suffer" and I have never ignored his basic needs showofhands. It frankly disgusts me that you would suggest such a thing. You know absolutely nothing about me, my child or the situation at the time, nor the woman I received help from. I have no interest in getting into a defensive position with a load of hysterical women who frankly will probably be co-sleeping until their child is 10. I did the best thing in the interests of my child and I stand by that. I cannot believe how judgy some mums net people are. These things are rarely black and white and if I had had a different child maybe I would have chosen differently, but I refuse to believe I have damaged or ignored my child.And I certainly won't be told so by a load of strangers on the internet!

SuckItAndSee · 06/11/2011 10:41

the business about cc not being recommended before 1yo is a bit of an MN bit. Drs Ferber and Weissbluth, both of who have written extensively on this, with attended studies, recommend from 6mo if this is something you want to do. The NHS also advocates it as one of the methods suitable for sleep training in the birth to five book.

The information about cortisol levels and crying comes from extreme situations such as the orphanages in Romania, not from babies who have been tended to and settled by loving carers every 5-10mins for 3 nights.

Also there is clear evidence about depression and sleep deprivation in mothers having a negative impact on attachment. So if cc helps you be less tired, depressed, and more responsive, then this may be positive in terms of attachment.

Having said that, it won't work for all babies. We tried it with dd1 and it worked a treat. dd2 is having none of it, and so on we plough our sleep deprived furrow.

SuckItAndSee · 06/11/2011 10:42

bit of an MN myth

ShowOfHands · 06/11/2011 11:05

I am not hysterical at all rollerbaby, perfectly calm in fact and merely trying to discuss the fact you admitted. That you left a 4mo to cry until he stopped of his own volition. I made no comment on the rest of your parenting or day to day life. But of course if you wish to respond with hyperbolic statements about cosleeping until 10 and claims that I made comments I didn't, then be as ridiculous as you like about it.

SuckIt, I do agree that depression and sleep deprivation in a mother is undesirable, though evidence would suggest that when the exhaustion and depression is resolved by 12 months, it does not have a lasting negative impact. Which fits in with the changeability you can expect in the first year. What I think is a big problem, and often the elephant in the room, is that we persist with trying to force tiny babies into a pattern that goes against their needs in this dogged pursual of 'sleeping through' and 'not reliant on us for sleep cues' and that IS exhausting. Constantly trying to resettle in a cot, shush patting, desperately resisting feeding or rocking to sleep, despairing at short intervals between feeds and night wakings etc. And it's just normal baby behaviour and there are usually a million and one things we can do to get through it which don't involve the frustration and sleep deprivation which comes from trying to impose our standards on a tiny baby to the detriment of their natural needs. And I think women could be better supported to achieve this. But they have health professionals, sleep 'experts', family, friends etc all commenting, all telling us we're doing it wrong, what our babies 'should' be doing and a cascade of methods which end in just leaving them to it and hoping they give up eventually.

It's fine to want whatever you want from a baby. As long as you acknowledge that maybe what you want isn't what a baby is designed to naturally do and in order to achieve what you want at a premature time, you have to alter a tiny baby's needs, perhaps by ignoring them completely and accept that you don't know the longterm effects of that decision. Almost certainly not catastrophic but a decision you have to make just like any other parenting decision. And if that woman understands there are other ways, there are clear and researched negatives to what they're doing and that their baby is utterly normal and it doesn't last forever and they STILL want to do it, then that's their choice. But I don't think any of us are in a position where sleep training or leaving a baby to cry is concerned where we can say 'oh yes I did it, it's fine'. Each woman deserves the full facts, a bit of support, some helpful suggestions and then the freedom to make their own choices. And I reserve the right to believe that it can be the wrong choice based on a baby's age/behaviour/the mother's motivation etc. It's merely my opinion.

RitaMorgan · 06/11/2011 11:10

Leaving a 4 month old to cry itself to sleep for 45 minutes is just bizarre, I wouldn't leave my 15 month old to cry alone for 45 minutes, at 4 months I'd have found it physically painful. But yes, your baby - you can do whatever you want to him.

banana87 · 06/11/2011 11:18

I broke every rule in the book Grin

I breastfed DD to sleep. I rocked her to sleep. I held her all night when she woke because she didn't want to be put down.
I totally set her up for "bad sleeping patterns" according to "sleep experts".

At 7 months she slept through the night, in her own room. At 12 months she told ME she was ready to self-settle and did with minimal crying (I believe 5 minutes of whinging was the most we got). She is now 3, and sleeps 11-12 hours at night. She knows if she wakes we will come straight to her. Patience pays off.

Rollerbaby · 06/11/2011 11:31

Suckit thank goodness for someone who isn't completely reactionary and speaks sense.

I'm going to leave you all to your indignation and fury and get on with looking after my very happy child who yet again had a full 12 hours last night.

ShowOfHands · 06/11/2011 11:36

I feel really chilled out for somebody who is indignant and furious. Odd that. Grin

Roller, you do what you like to your child but can I just point out that there's no cause and effect here. You did cio and your child slept for 12hrs last night. I have never done cio and both my children slept for 12hrs last night. Please don't make the mistake of recommending it based on this fact. Mostly all of them sleep in the end. Regardless of what you put them through under the guise of 'achieving' this.

EvilTwins · 06/11/2011 11:46

I did cc with my DTDs before 6 months. It worked. They're 5 now and perfectly fine. They sleep well and I know if they do wake in the night, it's for a real reason. I have friends whose children are older than mine and still don't sleep and I can't imagine how awful that is.

I do not subscribe to the "controlled crying is abuse" theory and have only ever encountered it in MN.

OP, it will take more that 3 nights- stick with it. It will be worth it, IMO.

blackchloe · 06/11/2011 13:41

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. DD slept through last night and the result is a very happy baby today. Lots of awake time, smiles and coos!:) I really cant see that the previous 3 nights is going to have a long lasting negative effect on her development and am shocked at some of the comments that have been made on this thread which suggest otherwise. As a teacher though perhaps the next time I have a parents evening with a struggling child it may be worth asking not only if they are a summer baby but whether the parents did cc!

OP posts:
Abra1d · 06/11/2011 16:46

Great news!

boredbuthappy · 07/11/2011 23:26

Blackchloe - not criticising here, but just wanted to mention that there are babies who won't respond to conrolled crying. It's a fact, and my LO is a prime example. I have tried one form or another of controlled crying with him at different ages (5 months, 6 months, 7 months) he's now 8 months and I'm thinking that this month I'm not going to bother. He can cry for hours. I wouldn't say he's stubborn, but more that he just doesn't understand and becomes hysterical before he ever has a chance to work it out. Whether it's something I did or didn't do correctly when he was younger, I'll never know. He also needs a dummy to get to sleep, and wakes up several times a night because of the dummy. I have tried to remove the dummy only to give up after 2 days of crying and give him back his dummy. Some may call this weakness, and maybe it is, but my gut tells me CC is not going to work for him, not right now anyway. Maybe I'll try again when he's 1.
It's damn hard, the sleepless zombie existence, but I find being a zombie much easier if I haven't had to endure hours of crying the night before.

startail · 07/11/2011 23:30

Never got the point of cc, every time I went in to DD1 to settle her it just gave her fresh lungs to cry even loader. I gave it up as a bad job long before she did.

pickledparsnip · 07/11/2011 23:45

Completely agree with everything ShowOfHands has said. Am really rather heartbroken at some of the posts here.