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Original poster

6 year old up for the day at 4am - help!

68 replies

Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 20:50

I am sorry if this has been done before.
Our 6 year old ds is up, alert, lively, ready for the day at 4am, sometimes earlier, occasionally later.
We have introduced a clock that has a moon that changes to the sunshine at an acceptable morning time but he completely ignores it - even with bribes and even when we just make the acceptable time 10 mins later than the time he is getting up.
He gets up, puts the tv on, sometimes gets himself some cereal etc and often sits alone until we get up (although he often wakes dd - 9- for company)
We have tried sticker charts, small toys rewards, punishments etc but none of these encourage him to stay in bed.
I contacted my HV but she could do little to help us - she suggested he had toys to play with in bed until he got up.
I contacted the GP but the only thing they could suggest was drugs and that was a route we wanted to avoid.
The biggest problem with it is the school are saying he is tired or sometimes he is a bit manic (I think his desperation to stay alert).
If we drive anywhere in the afternoon he is very likely to fall asleep.
If I move his bedtime later (it is currently 7.30pm) it makes no difference, he just gets even less sleep before he wakes up.
We give him weetabix for supper before he goes to bed incase it is hunger getting him up.
Has anyone got any suggestions/ideas that may help us?

OP posts:
cluelessnchaos · 09/01/2011 20:54

Could he be needing a wee, could you wake him up and put him on the loo when you go to bed?

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 20:58

We could give that a go clueless - thank you.
Any other suggestions of things we could try as well?

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amidaiwish · 09/01/2011 21:04

DD1 was like this, well not 4am but 5am

we got the moon/sun clock and it worked for us, combined with a big explanation n of deep sleep/light sleep and that if she wakes up and it is not getting up time she must go back to sleep, or lie there with her eyes closed dozing.

i also got very cross if she didn't do it and put her straight back to bed (as if she was a toddler and it was 3am...)

don't let him watch TV/have breakfast etc... i know it is tempting esp as he is not waking you up but he needs to go back to sleep.

geordieminx · 09/01/2011 21:05

Handcuffs?

Sorry.

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 21:06

geordie Grin believe me, there are mornings...

OP posts:
vanimal · 09/01/2011 21:07

Would he fall asleep again if you let him into your bed?

It's not ideal, but maybe if he slept that way, you could sort out timings, then get him back into his own bed once his sleep pattern was sorted out.

vanimal · 09/01/2011 21:08

Does he fall asleep again if you let him into your bed?

It's not ideal, but maybe if he slept that way, you could sort out timings, then get him back into his own bed once his sleep pattern was sorted out.

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 21:13

He doesn't fall asleep again if he comes in with us - he just fidgets and squirms and asks if it is time to get up yet every five minutes - even if one of us sleeps in the spare room so that there is more room for him.
We have tried unplugging the tv and making food inaccessible too but that doesn't help either. He just draws or plays with toys until someone else gets up. Sad

OP posts:
CarGirl · 09/01/2011 21:13

My dd who needed hardly any sleep turned out to have too much adrenalin and as such we treated her with NDD which worked, she started sleeping 8-6/7 instead of 9-6 and no more waking up in the night asking if it was time to get up!

www.inpp.org.uk/ndd_neuro_developmental_delay/index.php

It was her retained moro reflex that was increasing her adrenalin levels.

amidaiwish · 09/01/2011 21:17

but the fact that he is knackered late afternoon suggests to me he has the equivalent of jet-lag

seriously he is old enough to understand and to be able to take it if you get consistently cross and consistently put him back to bed. i put up with DD1 starting her/our day at 5am for years. even now if dh is up and out early she knows exactly what time he goes (is that why daddy left at 4.23?)

BUT she is not knackered anymore because she is only half awake and has learned to doze rather than up.

hillyhilly · 09/01/2011 21:18

How long have you tried putting him to bed later for? It could take a while to adjust but 7.30 is pretty early for a lot of 6 yr olds.
He clearly has a strong body clock but I would suggest a later bedtime (maybe during holidays) for at least a couple of weeks and keep him from sleeping in the day to 'reset' his internal clock a bit

amidaiwish · 09/01/2011 21:20

one thing to check is that nothing is waking him. what time does your heating come on?
is his room nice and cool with a cosy duvet?
does he have water by his bed?

CarGirl · 09/01/2011 21:22

My non-sleeper was 7 in August and is now back to sleeping 9ish til 7 and has been for at least a year. I would suggest an 8.30 bedtime.

amidaiwish · 09/01/2011 21:26

i see what you're saying but the kid is KNACKERED.

personally i would move his bedtime earlier and earlier until he is getting what seems to be enough sleep, 10 hours?

then once consistently getting that amount of sleep, even if it means 6pm to 4am for a week, then start pushing him later and later both sides.

p.s DD1 who is 7 in feb goes to bed at 8, stops reading at 8.30 and is allowed up after 7 weekdays, 7.30 weekends.

CarGirl · 09/01/2011 21:31

My older one needs loads more sleep (and gets it).

You do need to knock the getting up thing on the head.

Dd knows not to get up she has to stay in her room and read in bed and if she needs the loo she has to be as quiet as possible. I would not permit any of mine to get up at 4am. I am however empathetic to the fact thatmy non-sleeper just doesn't need much sleep.

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 21:33

Cargirl we had a look at the link and the list of symptoms sounded very familiar. We looked at the questionaire and we would only tick about 2 of the boxes. How was your dd diagnosed? Was the questionaire relevant to your dd?
amidaiwish how cross do I get? We are cross and very unfriendly if we wake up and realise he is up and return him to his bed. We have punished him with not getting friends to play (his favourite thing)and taking toys away. Do you think I should take it further? Any suggestions? I am desperate! He knows it is too early but he just can't seem to stop himself.
He has water, a cool room and layers on his bed which he can adjust. There is no obvious noise waking him - he does it wherever we are, not just in this house if that would be relevant.
hillyhilly we will try that in the Easter holidays - or would a five day weekend be long enough do you think?

OP posts:
Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 21:35

How do you stop them getting up? I can't seem to crack this.

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CarGirl · 09/01/2011 21:38

Once your ds can read that will help as he can read in bed. Can you give him audio books to listen to in bed and insist that is the only thing he is allowed to do?

The test for too much adrenalin is simple, it's how their pupils react to light. My dd had gross motor issues as well so obviously had more ticks but they are a different reflex to the moro ones.

Worth contacting a practioner and asking for an assessment appointment?

amidaiwish · 09/01/2011 21:39

what is his personality?
DD1 is bright and quite rational/scientific - the breakthrough for us was explaining to her about the different types of sleep and how they are all important for your body/brain. She got that and started working with us. She has thankfully learned to doze. Before she would be fast asleep, wake up and jump out of bed within 10 seconds. i would vomit if i did that!!

but that wouldn't work with DD2 (who often gets up into us in the night age 5 but loves lying in bed in the morning.... ) She has to be bollocked/treats cancelled etc...

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 21:48

Cargirl I think I will look into that further - thank you.
amidaiwish I think I get it - I need to find a "hook" that will appeal to him that will encourage him to stay in bed.
He is a very lively, very creative, imaginative but anxious child. I will have a good think about that one. The need to learn to doze seems to be exactly the problem.

We had much greater sleep problems with him until recently. This is the last bit we have to crack.

OP posts:
amidaiwish · 09/01/2011 21:50

i do sympathise i really do. don't give up, you will crack it if you stay focused on it and put your mind to it.

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 21:54

Thanks amidaiwish - we are so willing to take the next step, it is just knowing what that next step is...

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amidaiwish · 09/01/2011 21:54

the audio books is a really good idea btw. if he stays in his bed lying down that is a great first step.

Olegirl · 09/01/2011 21:54

There is a book which helped us no end with ours - 'solve your Childs sleep problems' by Dr Richard Ferber. I had a similar problem myself when we moved house recently - 4 am every morning I was bright eyed and bushy tailed and nothing could get me back to sleep, it went on for weeks and was horrible so I do have some sympathy for your little one - and yourself too of course!

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 21:56

olegirl does the book deal with early waking? We have found a whole library of books which deal with getting them to bed, which is no problem with him, he is shattered, but no literature about keeping them there early in the morning.

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