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Original poster

6 year old up for the day at 4am - help!

68 replies

Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 20:50

I am sorry if this has been done before.
Our 6 year old ds is up, alert, lively, ready for the day at 4am, sometimes earlier, occasionally later.
We have introduced a clock that has a moon that changes to the sunshine at an acceptable morning time but he completely ignores it - even with bribes and even when we just make the acceptable time 10 mins later than the time he is getting up.
He gets up, puts the tv on, sometimes gets himself some cereal etc and often sits alone until we get up (although he often wakes dd - 9- for company)
We have tried sticker charts, small toys rewards, punishments etc but none of these encourage him to stay in bed.
I contacted my HV but she could do little to help us - she suggested he had toys to play with in bed until he got up.
I contacted the GP but the only thing they could suggest was drugs and that was a route we wanted to avoid.
The biggest problem with it is the school are saying he is tired or sometimes he is a bit manic (I think his desperation to stay alert).
If we drive anywhere in the afternoon he is very likely to fall asleep.
If I move his bedtime later (it is currently 7.30pm) it makes no difference, he just gets even less sleep before he wakes up.
We give him weetabix for supper before he goes to bed incase it is hunger getting him up.
Has anyone got any suggestions/ideas that may help us?

OP posts:
Olegirl · 09/01/2011 22:11

I don't have a copy now as I lent it and never got it back so I can't check. I work in the field of psychotherapy but not with under 18s so I am no expert on children but 'early morning waking' in adults is often associated with anxiety and can be quite complex to the individual. With mine I was always a great believer in consistency and routine which is easy to say when you're well rested but hard, hard, hard when you're not. Dr Ferber is a good read and very supportive to tired parents - a bit like a life raft to a drowning man! So sorry I can't remember if there is a chapter on early waking but I do know he deals with understanding sleep and sleep cycles really well..

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 22:13

Thanks Olegirl it sounds like a useful read regardless. I will go and look it up.

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Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 22:27

I am going to look into audio books now too. Would I get him to use little headphones so he doesn't wake up his sister in the opposite room do you think?

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Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 09/01/2011 22:48

I have just ordered him a personal cd player, some headphones and some story cds on Amazon. If he wakes up he can listen to a story lying in bed - with any luck he will drop off again - if not at least it is still quiet, restful time in bed. I hope it arrives quickly. [hopeful emoticon]
Thanks everyone - if anything else occurs to people then please keep the ideas coming. We will try lots until we find a solution.

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missy10 · 09/01/2011 22:56

i am having the same problems as you carrot my dd who is 5 is up at stupid o'clock and she also wakes 3-4 times during the night as well the lack of sleep is awful the worst things are the great big bags under her eyes and she is on the go all day so im watching this thread with interest

Olegirl · 09/01/2011 22:58

I think if it helps then yes. Just remembering bits from that sleep book and he asks things like 'is my child getting the right amount of sleep, is he sleeping when I want him to and are my expectations reasonable? 'There is a chart on how much sleep per age and also it may be relevant if your DS sleep is split between more than one session ie naps in the day. Good luck!

amidaiwish · 10/01/2011 10:31

great - sit him down and talk to him about the need to stay in bed until the sun comes up on his clock. that if he wakes and cannot fall back to sleep then he can listen to the story CDs, but he must not get up. if he needs the toilet then he can go quietly and straight back to bed. be 100% consistent on this even if you are knackered and just want to go back to sleep and it is easier to let him get up and do his own thing downstairs.

good luck!

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 10/01/2011 17:43

I am in a sorry state today. Ds got up at 4.45am and I heard him so I got up and took him back to bed. I got in the bed with him to make sure he didn't get up again. I didn't sleep another wink though as he just asked me every 5 minutes if he could get up yet, despite being told in no uncertain terms that he had to be quiet. It doesn't seem to matter what I say or do he completely ignores me and does what he likes with this issue.
I have been a horrid mum this afternoon, not helped by a mum being horrid to me and my ds at school (another thread really)and making him cry (and me have to leave the playground quickly incase I did too.) Sad
I am so exhausted I feel ill and I feel too sick to eat my tea.
The HV hasn't been in touch either.
I did see a friend today who is a social worker who is involved in child protection. She feels he needs to be referred to a sleep clinic.
Has anyone any experience of this?

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CarGirl · 10/01/2011 18:30

I was just reading how you said he was anxious this is something else the therapy I linked to will help with. My other dd also has retained moro reflex but she is the one who sleeps loads but is very anxious and now at 8 has really bad tics at home. Therapist explained how it's the flight or fight thing and it manifests differently in each person - sounds like you've got a hideous combination!!!!

I have no idea about sleep clinics but whilst you're on the waiting list I'd try and find a NDD therapist (there are other organisations not just INPP who train people - my therapist operates from Windsor if you're in the south east at all!) and start treatment they will be honest and tell you if they can't help after assessing him.

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 10/01/2011 18:46

Thanks CarGirl. We are in the NE of Scotland so we will have to look up here. I have a friend who is a psychologist so I will ask her if she knows of anyone or look online.
He seems really taken with the idea of the cd player and books on cd in the morning. I hope Amazon hurry up and get them to us soon and I hope he can stick to his promise at 4ish tomorrow morning to just turn over and go back to sleep.

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CarGirl · 10/01/2011 18:54

I think my therapist flies up to Edinburgh every 6 weeks or is Glasgos Confused he's also been teaching/training out in Cyprus!!!

Don't know if you're old enough to remember the documentary about conductive education for children with cerabyl palsey in Hungry? It works on the same principle, making the children do repetitive exercises ervery day trains the brain to work/respond differently.

Our brain, reflexes and body are absolutely amazing and small imbalances can cause strange outcomes.

I would never have sought treatment for dd as there was nothing wrong with her but the sleep issue drove me nuts and it ended up sorting out her inability to run, scooter, ride her bike etc etc as well!

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 10/01/2011 18:59

It sounds like it has fixed a lot of things for your dd Cargirl. The sleep issue in this house is seriously damaging my mental health, let alone what it is doing to his ability to perform at school, play well with his friends etc.

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CarGirl · 10/01/2011 19:36

I'm not even sure we ticked many of those boxes on the checklist. I completely agree with how debiliting lack of sleep is. I got woken up 3-4 times per night 3-4 nights per week and she would be up at 6am everyday having gone to sleep probably 8.30 at most and this was from the age of 3 Shock

Cleary tired, never drowsy just used to pass out in the end. In the car she once fell asleep mid sentence - went from wide awake to fast asleep in seconds, the whole relaxed drowsy thing just didn't exist in her.

amidaiwish · 10/01/2011 19:42

nothing to add just some sympathy/empathy. i've been there. hope the CD player helps him relax in bed.

amidaiwish · 10/01/2011 19:43

i would also suggest that he rests with the light off, will he be able to find the play button without turning on the light? Maybe set it up before bed and put a neon sticker on play?

amidaiwish · 10/01/2011 19:45

my friend had telephone appts with the millpond sleep clinic for a similar issue and it helped. She now has to follow an absolutely rigid routine with her dd and it seems to work (though is a bit of a nightmare to stick to).

crazygracieuk · 10/01/2011 19:55

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone has mentioned this but have you tried the wake to sleep technique?

CarGirl · 10/01/2011 20:03

Oh yes wake to sleep - may kill you in the process though!

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 10/01/2011 21:43

Sympathy is much appreciated tonight - thank you. Smile
What is wake to sleep? Should I be scared to ask? Will it make me a more horrid mummy than I was today? Blush

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CarGirl · 10/01/2011 21:58

You wake them up at some point before they normally wake up so you disrupt their sleep pattern/body clock.

So something like wake him up at 4am and then settle him back to sleep so he get's out of the 5am habit........

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 10/01/2011 22:09

That sounds seriously scary. I think I would have to win the lottery and then hire someone to either do it for me or be me for the day time while I recovered from the horror of the night.

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Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 10/01/2011 22:10

Has anyone done this successfully?

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CarGirl · 10/01/2011 22:13

I think people have, I think your dh would need to take leave from work so you could each catch up during the day. Does he normally sleep through it all?

Original poster
Carrotsandcelery · 10/01/2011 22:20

We seem to be about 50/50 on who hears him but sometimes neither of us do and sometimes we both do.
You are right though, the only way we could do it is if he took time off.
How long does it take to be effective?

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CarGirl · 10/01/2011 22:35

No idea - have a google see what is out there on the web?