6 year old up for the day at 4am - help!

[Carrotsandcelery]

I am sorry if this has been done before.
Our 6 year old ds is up, alert, lively, ready for the day at 4am, sometimes earlier, occasionally later.
We have introduced a clock that has a moon that changes to the sunshine at an acceptable morning time but he completely ignores it - even with bribes and even when we just make the acceptable time 10 mins later than the time he is getting up.
He gets up, puts the tv on, sometimes gets himself some cereal etc and often sits alone until we get up (although he often wakes dd - 9- for company)
We have tried sticker charts, small toys rewards, punishments etc but none of these encourage him to stay in bed.
I contacted my HV but she could do little to help us - she suggested he had toys to play with in bed until he got up.
I contacted the GP but the only thing they could suggest was drugs and that was a route we wanted to avoid.
The biggest problem with it is the school are saying he is tired or sometimes he is a bit manic (I think his desperation to stay alert).
If we drive anywhere in the afternoon he is very likely to fall asleep.
If I move his bedtime later (it is currently 7.30pm) it makes no difference, he just gets even less sleep before he wakes up.
We give him weetabix for supper before he goes to bed incase it is hunger getting him up.
Has anyone got any suggestions/ideas that may help us?

He seems very old for this method?

I wonder if in part your ds is chronically over tired hence surviving on so little sleep. I really think I would look at this adrenalin thing. When dd woke up during the night she was absolutely wide awake and ready to start the day - I have no idea if she actually slept inbetween any some of all the visits to me asking if it was time to get up yet.

Never drowsy if you woke her up, wide awake and raring to go she never want reassurance or to sleep with us she just genuinely thought it was time to start the day whenever she woke

The HV assistant just phoned and the HV has had a family crisis so won't be in for a while. They offered me an emergency HV but I thought I would be better to carry on with the one who had seen us through this far.
I am off to research the NDD a bit further and hoping the cd player arrives soon.

Controversial, but my DS 7 has woken around 4.30 am for his entire life-, as a baby he fought his sleep so this has been a life-long affliction. But he just doesn't seem to need much sleep-he is very bright and seems to wake up and start thinking and can't doze- ) He learnt after spending some long time -outs in a very cold conservatoy as a 3 year old- to stay in his room, playing in silence listening to a story tapes on his headphones. He doesn't like it, but I am of the opinion that early morning starts should not be rewarded with TV and an early breakfast- so he has to wait until 6 am until he is allowed to turn on his light and tape and 7am before he is allowed to creep downstairs. At one point last year he started to wake his siblings for company- and despite being asked not to, he continued. Also, some mornings he played too noisly and woke me. I told him what the punishement would be if he woke me before 7am . And on the occasionas he wakes his sisters or plays too noisily, I count the hours and minutes before 7am that he has disturbed someones sleep and then when he returns from school, he has to sit on his own in the conservatory for that length of time writing lines " I must not wake anyone before 7am" The longest he had to do this for was 2 hours 50 mins - double torture for him as he hates his own company and he hates writing. It may sound cruel- but all other avenues were exhausted first and this by far has been the most effective way. And if he disturbs me one morning after several of not waking anyone I just warn him that if he wakes anyone within the next week he will have to write lines in the conservatory again. I also have got him to draw pictures of himself staying in bed- with a reminder of the times things can happen and he has put them on his bed,by the light switch and door, so that he can't 'forget'.

containher I can truly undertand why you have been driven to such "harsh" punishment.

I would ask you to consider looking at the adrenalin thing.........

containher, do you think it has actually worked? do you think he now sleeps longer or dozes, or at least rests in bed, or has just learnt not to disturb anyone else?

Was he knackered early evening like the OP's or just doesn't need any more sleep?

containher I can see what drove you to those measures entirely.
It is very frustrating when they just don't listen or appreciate what they are doing to the rest of the family. It sounds extreme but I really feel this is ruining my parenting experience almost entirely, let alone what it is doing to dh career, dd childhood and ds ability to enjoy life.
On a more positive note, the headphones for the cd player have at least arrived.
Cargirl I can't find much on the NDD idea. Did you do it through your GP or did you contact the people on the link you posted?

Hmmm I took dd first to an osteopath (it did help a bit and quickly) and he diagnosed the too much adrenalin (like I said it's quick and easy to see - very freaky though) and the NDD practioner is someone he works alongside at another premises.

My practioner trained with INPP (brushing techniques used) and another organisation (exercise techniques used) but isn't actually registered with INPP because he wouldn't sign their exclusivity contract as he is very much a holistic approach - different things work for different people rather than one approach fits all.

If you want to pursue it if you pm me your town & postcode I'll see if he can recommend someone in your area (ish)

Let us know how you get on with cd player

This person is in Aberdeen, may be worth contacting them. You could write a lengthy email about the issue and query if retained moro could be responsible and if there is anywhere close to you that would be able to assess?

www.kingswoodlearning.com/contact.htm

The assessment consists of the child doing a number of physical exercises so they can definitively tell which refelexes are retained and to what extent. I was always with my dd so I could see how differently she performed at each assessment (and had never performed the exercises inbetween)

Retained reflexes often do mature over time anyway (but for some people not, I def still have issues with my moro reflex I startle so easily, struggle with sleep, very sensitive to nois & light) but this will help someone get there much quicker and hopefully completely.

I will stop wittering on for a while....

No,he doesn't sleep once he has woken- he just has learnt not to disturb anyone- anytime i get up to go the loo in the night- he is there, wide awake and he seems to be no worse for wear about the fact his day starts so early. He doesn't appear particularly tired- it just seems that 8 hour sleep a night is his quota- ( i send him to bed at 7pm- he plays until 8pm with the light on and then lights out -but he rarely sleeps before 9pm). I have checked the adrenalin thing, he has no other symptoms( they tested him for all sorts as a baby- beacause he slept so little) I resigned myself to the fact that I can't do anything other than drug him ( which we tried when he was baby- but it made very little difference) and as i don't want to drug him now, It's just a fact of life and he rarely disturbs the rest of us now.

Thanks for the link Cargirl I am finding out more about the place at the moment.
The HV phoned today and thought the cd player was an excellent idea but that it shouldn't be available to him at bed time - so I have to remember to put it up beside his bed for the morning.
I go up every night before I go to bed to check on them so I will pop it in then - when it comes!

I have to say our lives improved again when little sleeping dd learnt to read. She has a room to herself (no-one wants to share with her funnily enough) so she can turn her light on in the morning and read quietly without disturbing everyone else!

Ds is on the verge of reading independantly. I also realised that come the time change it won't be so bad really - 4.45 will become 5.45 which seems much more bearable.

Has the cd player helped at all?

Hi Carrotandcelery
I am reading this with great interest !!! You could be talking about my son ! He is 6 and has always woken early but is currently waking at 4.20am without fail every day ! My husband and I are exhausted and obviously so is our son ! I have tried early bed, late bed, it makes no difference. We are also at a loss for what to do next .... My son does have retained reflexes. How do they test for high adrenaline levels ? and how can it be lowered ?

Hi flowerflower, thanks for your message. I thought I should update this thread.

We got the personal CD player and after a few false starts where he refused to use it, his class teacher asked to hear about the story he had listened to at school the next day and that did the trick.
Now he listens to a story on CD and stays in bed until 7am which is when he allowed to get up.
Occasionally he gets up and I have to return him to bed but it is not nearly as frequent as before.
Occasionally he falls asleep again or is so engrossed he stays in bed beyond 7am.
It hasn't totally solved the problem but is had made living with it much easier as we are at least getting more rest and he is better rested lying in bed relaxing than he was getting up and playing.

He has just been referred to the school doctor and will probably be referred on from there to the school psychologist. He is exhibiting huge anxiety at school at the moment (very long story involving a bullying parent) and there is a question whether he has something underlying it all.
This is why we have not taken the retained reflexes further. We are hoping that it can all be investigated further through the referral. I will obviously raise the question when I see them.
At present he is showing the symptoms of some sort of ADHD but he obviously needs much more testing before we can move forward.

Thank you everyone for all the information you shared with me. It has made a big difference to know I am not alone and to have some new avenues to investigate.

I will report back when we know more ourselves.

I know this thread is old but this describes my 6 year old boy perfectly. He has been formally diagnosed with ADHD. He wakes up consistently between 4 and 5:30 am. Did anything work in the end?

It's a long shot for sure, but is the OP around to share when her child finally grew out of this stage. To read your post and responses is like a window to my current reality. What helped? Anything? I'm at my wits end!