Support thread for no-cry sleep plans

[beancounting]

Following on from another thread about rubbish sleepers, this is a thread for anyone trying to implement a NCSS-type plan to improve their DC's sleep, where we can share plans, provide moral support and try and keep each other on track!

Over the past week we have been working on getting 5mo DD to sleep in her own bed rather than co-sleep (which we have been doing more and more for about the last 2 months), and have been making some progress, with 3 nights spent entirely in her bed and 3 where she came into our bed after about 4am.

So I'm now thinking of moving on to the next stage, with the objective of reducing the number of times DD wakes in the night from 5 or 6 to 3 or 4 - but at the moment I BF her to sleep at night and she can't self-settle when she wakes up.

My plan for this is to use the Pantley Pull Off to gently break the BF-to-sleep association (and gradually progress to putting her down more awake) and to try spacing out night feeds a bit (I've been working on trying to get her to feed more in the day so I don't think she really needs to feed that often at night - she's now only sucking for 5 minutes or so before she nods off again), initially by rocking her back to sleep rather than just automatically feeding her.

If you've used the PPO, how long did it take to break the BF/sleep association? How did you know when to try to remove your DC from the breast? Pantley says something about the sucks becoming light and fluttery but DD seems to go straight from strong fast sucks to falling off the breast fast asleep so I keep getting the timing wrong.

And is it realistic to try and space the night feeds from 2 hourly to 3 hourly, or should I work up to that by pushing them back by say 15 minutes at a time?

Does anyone else have any plans they're working on at the moment, so we can compare notes on progress etc?

this is a brilliant idea for a thread, i will definitely be joining in. On MN on my phone right now, and we goin away tom for weekend but next week i will write more about my current plan and how its going :)

thx beancounting for starting this up!!

Hello! Marking place for later ...

Well last night was a bit of a disaster - went to bed ok at about 6ish, and rocked back to sleep when she woke up an hour later, fed at 9ish. Then she woke again at 10.30 and I couldn't get her back to sleep until 1am - tried rocking, leaving her to grumble and then feeding her, on a sort of rolling basis! She did keep nodding off but then woke up and would be wide awake for half an hour before going off again.

Unfortunately that set the tone for the rest of the night although with shorter wakings - she'd wake, I'd rock her, 10 minutes later she'd wake again and only settle for feeding. Every hour and a half. I was so fed up that couldn't be bothered to do the PPO so feel like I fell at the first hurdle. On the plus side I did get to listen to quite a lot of my audio book!

I'm not sure I'm up for it tonight either, we're meeting friends tomorrow and I want to be a bit perkier than today so think will start again tomorrow night, even though I know I need to persevere and be consistent to see results...

Look forward to hearing how you're getting on, Muslimah and Bapula!

We've got a v alert and wakeful DS (11 wks) who would stay awake all day and all night if it was up to him! He's also never been able to self-settle, so we've either rocked or fed him to sleep. It is quite a struggle to get him to fall asleep full stop! Our goals are to get him falling asleep more easily and weaning him off the rocking eventually as it's knackering us out.

We've been doing a bedtime routine for the last 10 days or so, and at first he didn't seem to get that it's supposed to be soothing and just got unfeasibly excited by it all. But he seems to be getting the hang of it now - Thursday night he woke up every two hours but last night did 8pm-11pm then midnight to 5am! Big result for us.

We like the idea of NCSS as we don't want to do CC, but have no idea how we're going to wean him off the rocking without any crying. At the moment we rock til he's 95% asleep then he does the last bit in his basket with some shush/pat. Put him down any more awake than that and cue lots of wriggling and eventual meltdown. Suspect we might end up doing pick up/put down at four months, which I guess is a compromise between the two. But hoping that bedtime routine and regular, consistent nap times a la Pantley will have a good effect.

Have ordered the book from the library so marking my place for when I know a little more.

Hi Bean and everyone. Thanks for starting this. I have 7mth old DS who has never liked his moses basket or cot so I fell into co-sleeping. He cannot self settle at all. He will sometimes go in his cot asleep but will wake after 20mins so more often will end up being nursed in our arms until we go to bed. He seems to be getting more sensitive. He can tell he is in his room and will cry then or, tonight DP took him up fast asleep but stepped on squeaky floorboard which set him off crying! Have decided something has to be done but not sure where to start. A lot of the problem is not wanting to wake older child (who has always been a good sleeper). I really would like my bed back! Other problem is, like everyone, so shattered that don't know what I can face doing as I know that once you start you need to stick with it.
Sorry for long reply and don't mean to hijack thread! I would like to give something a go with support of others on here.

hi, hope you don't mind me joining you! My DD is 8 months old and we have tried the pantley pull off method the past few nights. Already I can see progress! Our problem is that we ALWAYS feed to sleep - at night, during the night and for naps. This would be ok if my DD always took a decent feed at night, but recently she has decided she is full but then cannot self settle.

I have to admit that my DD's sleep is not as bad as other people's DC's. My DD is usually in bed between 7.30pm and 8pm and will usually only waken once during the night. However, recently, bedtime has been a bit hit and miss - I know my DD is teething and this doesn't help, but I just want to be able to do things in the evening.

So...during the night...we have used the PPO for 3 nights and already during the night my DD has actually pulled off the breast awake and self settled. My DD sleeps in her own cot in her own room but during the night I bring her itno my bedroom and feed lying down. I never used to do this. Used to feed sitting on a stool in my DD's room but its been so cold recently that I started bringing her into bed with us to keep warm. We have never coslept and my DD always goes back into her own bed after feeds.

I am finding the PPO method more difficult in the evenings at bedtime. My DD's sucks get fluttery, she is practically sleeping then as soon as I take her off she roots, I try to gently close her mouth and she howls! Back on we go...go through all of this several times then suddenly she is wide awake and refusing to feed

So...I will be looking forward to all your top tips and positive stories!

Oh and sorry for the long, pointless, post

Beancounting, can I just ask are you using the PPO method at the last feed of the day, before bed? Pantley says that this is the most important feed to start doing the method, so I'd maybe concentrate on that before starting to try and space out feeds during the night?

Hi everyone!

Thanks harverina, I am trying to do the PPO at bedtime (your question made me realise that actually DD doesn't feed to sleep very often in the day anymore, which I guess is progress in itself!), and I think you're right in that I should focus on one thing at a time so I'm going to work on PPO and putting her down semi-awake first I think.

Unfortunately my experience so far of PPO is much the same as yours (which is why I'm not always that keen to do it!), in that it ends up with her wide awake and cross, and then it's really hard to get her to sleep!

Last night we did have one minor - but shortlived - breakthrough! I put her in her crib after doing PPO and waking her up properly, and just lay on the bed next to her rocking it. After a while she started to grumble which then turned into a whiny cry, at which I sort of wrapped my arms round her (so she felt a bit like she was being held) and stroked her head. She then quietened a bit before starting to cry again and just as I was thinking she was getting upset and about to pick her up she would close her eyes and almost fall asleep - she kept doing this for about half an hour but then eventually fell asleep. In her crib (admittedly with lots of help) for the first time ever!

However she then woke up again 10 minutes later and it didn't work the second time, instead of quietening down she became more agitated so I tried rocking her which didn't work either, eventually I fed her (on the basis that by this time it was about 2 hours since her bedtime feed anyway ). I then managed to get her back down with a sort of PU/PD approach, rocking until she was nearly asleep, putting her down (which woke her up and made her cry) and then picking her up again after 30 seconds. Not entirely a cry-free approach but it seemed to work in the end and hopefully wasn't too stressful for her (or me).

Unfortunately the rest of the night wasn't great, awake every hour and a half and when I put her back down she would settle but wake up again 10 minutes later (just as I was nodding off). Then at about 1.30 she properly woke up and refused to go back to sleep until I gave in and brought her into our bed at about 3am, when she slept until 6am. One step forward and two back.

Bapula, it sounds promising that your DS can manage the last bit of falling asleep in his cot, even if he does need shush-patting - I read another thread somewhere on here where a poster was saying their DC suddenly one day "got it" and went from being put down semi-asleep to being put down awake but sleepy, so hopefully it's just a case of persevering although it's really hard. It makes you nervous to keep trying though when you know you risk a meltdown, doesn't it?

Mimmit - have you read NCSS? it's not rocket science but there are a few ideas, basically about making very gradual changes to what you do, including some ideas on how to stop co-sleeping. I think the thing I've found most helpful (not that we've seen much improvement so far!) is the idea that you plan what you will do, commit to it and then review progress - makes you feel like you're regaining a bit of control somehow.

Sorry for the overlong post, hope everyone has a decent night tonight!

Yes bean, I know what you mean - so hard to try things when you know you risk waking them up/causing a hissy fit etc, especially when you're desperate for sleep yourself!

I think DS is having his 12-week growth spurt - he was up every hour and a half last night feeding like a demon! Had some progress this evening though. Put him down about 8pm after bedtime routine, but he woke up at 8.50 - he'd managed to wriggle out of his swaddle. I thought, oh bugger, going to have to start from scratch, feed him again etc. But his cries didn't seem too distressed so i just swaddled him up again and put his white noise on. Then the second I turned the light out he fell asleep on my shoulder. I put him down, he smiled and opened his eyes a bit, then zonked out for another three hours! Unbelievable. It was almost like he wanted to go to sleep, and he knows this night time and that's when he sleeps. I always thought the whole bedtime routine thing would be lost on such a young baby but it really seems to be making a difference to his ability to settle in the evenings.

Here's hoping for a decent nigh tonight!

Wow, Bapula, that's great (the resettling, not the constant feeding...)! It's funny how sometimes they are fine when you're expecting all hell to break loose, and vice versa. I know introducing a bedtime routine really helped DD in terms of getting her ready to go to sleep, to the extent that when she's getting tired and grumpy in the evenings, she calms down as soon as bath preparations begin, and then gets really impatient to go up to the bedroom after her bath. I think you can get so caught up in what's not working that you lose sight of the progress that has been made.

DD was easier to resettle last night but still woke every couple of hours , I suspect she's easier to settle in the night when she's gone to bed more peacefully but unfortunately a peaceful bedtime usually means feeding to sleep and a failed Pantley Pull Off, so not helping the overall objective!

Oh dear, bean - persevere though, I'm sure she'll get the hang of it eventually. These methods are quite subtle, aren't they ... you have to be quite patient, which doesn'y come easily to me!

DS was a little star last night. After a promising evening session - 8pm til 11.30pm - he settled easily again at 12.30 and slept through until 5.45am! I was astonished! He's been feeding like crazy today so hope he's 'tanking up' for a nice long sleep - or maybe he's making up for last night ... time will tell!

I'm SO glad to have found this thread. I've been intending to start training my 9mo DS for a while now but just don't have the stamina to start yet - I know it's going to be such hard work emotionally. I have had some brilliant advice on a separate thread from a fellow Mumsnetter, so I'll post more later with the plan I'm going to follow.
Good luck everyone with your own endeavours!

hi everyone

just thought id write about what we're doing.

basically our problem is ds will only be rocked to sleep or fed to sleep (but he only feeds to sleep when we're co sleeping, from about 11pm onwards). we have a hammock which we rock him to sleep in otherwise.

our routine is roughly:

7pm start bedtime routine of nappy free time, bath, massage, feed, sleep
between 8pm to 8.30pm asleep

then his old routine pre sleep training was:

45 mins after sleep- wake up, has to be resettled
30 mins after this- as above
30 mins after this- as above, this resettling takes long
1 hour after this- wake up, feed, comes into bed with us til morning, wakes every hour and a half has to be fed to sleep

we started sleep training last week and we are doing two things:

gradual withdrawal of rocking using NCSS method
PPO while co sleeping

the PPO sometimes takes quite a few attempts but i must say its been such a relief because it does work eventually so now i can actually get to sleep on my back now which is much more comfortable than rigidly on my side because ds wont let go of boobie!

since wednesday he has also started to sleep for 2 -2 1/2 hours (last night 3 hours!!!) in the early evening, usually he still has the 45 minute wake up but yesterday he even skipped that! its obviously not a quick fix but in the last week just those 2 hours or so have made me feel human again

tonights a bit messed up though because (very unusually) ds only had 2 half hour naps in the day so at 6.30 he was very tired and feel asleep on the boobie for half an hour, so he won't be ready for bed til about 8.30/9. should i have resettled him when he woke up after half an hour at naptime? i don't usually resettle from naps, but today it was very unusual for him to not sleep for longer, usually naps are never a problem.

sorry for writing so much, i type really fast and always seem to get carried away when typing on MN posts!!

I'm just marking my place and will be reading with interest as have a nearly nine month old DD who has never slept through the night. I am just going with the flow at the mo but have vowed to do something about her sleep in the New Year. I have previously read NCSS so hope to get some further inspiration here! Good luck everyone!

hi Muslimah, that sounds remarkably like DD's sleeping pattern - presumably it's waking every sleep cycle or every other one? sounds like you're making good progress though!

Was there something that woke your DS up from his nap earlier? maybe if it interferes with the evening then trying to resettle for naps would be worth doing - see what he's like tonight!

FWIW, I have found that when DD gets overtired and ends up having a late nap, she can't stay awake as long as usual so it doesn't mess up her bedtime routine as much as I'd have thought. So this evening for example she napped from 5.30 till 6.00, but then was tired again really quickly so we whizzed through her hedtime routine and had her in bed by 7.30, which is only 30 minutes later than usual.

That's really good of your DS Bapula - long may it continue!

muslimah how old is your ds? Our ds's naps suddenly got a lot shorter at about 9 weeks. They still are a bit sporadic now, tbh, but I don't worry about it tha much, as long as he actually sleeps. It seems to refresh him and stop him getting cranky. No rest for me though unfortunately!

bapula hes 7 months but youd think i was describing a newborn from his sleeping pattern!! About 6 weeks ago i dropped one of his daytime naps so now he has a half hour nap and a 1 hour to 1 hour and a half nap. His morning nap was in the sling so he woke up when we got home and i took him out of it, but he usually makes up for it in his later nap so was surprised when he got up ealier. Maybe i should have still put him down at his normal bedtime going by what bean says. Will try that next time.

In a couple of days im going to do another sleep diary to compare the real difference since we've been doing ncss. It feels as tho he is generally waking up every 2 hours in the night, an improvement from every hour and a half, but i cant be sure in my half asleep sleep deprived state!

Have you done your sleep diary Muslimah? I know what you mean about losing track of how often they wake up, I always think I will remember but it all seems to blur by the morning.

Can anyone advise me on the Pantley Pull Off? DD now comes off ok after a few (or half a dozen) goes and whimpers a few times (but her eyes are closed) and then I rock her and she quiets and falls asleep - does this sound like she's not awake enough when I take her off?

I'm also finding that she often wakes again 10 minutes later and seems to be rooting for the breast. Sometimes she'll settle but sometimes I have to start again. Does this mean I'm taking her off too soon or will she get out of this habit eventually?

Hi all,

We have seen some improvement in my DD's sleep since starting PPO last week. Our problem was not frequent waking (she only wakens 1-2 times per night) more that she could only resettle when fed.
We still have some issues at bedtime with the PPO method - sometimes my DD will get cranky and waken up properly, but that seems tobe happening less and less and during the night she has been pulling off herself and then falling asleep. I am very pleased to announce that on Tuesday night she slept all night!!! I was so shocked when my DGH told me that it was 6.45am - we woke up before my DD!

We have gotten into the habit of ALWAYS feeding my DD when she wakens. Even if she wakens half an hour after going to sleep. So, on Tuesday night for the first time ever we didn't pick her up when she wakened at 9.30pm, roughly an hour after she was in bed (we were stuck in traffic so bedtime was later). My DD is teething just now and I think thats what wakened her as she was chewing on her hands. I just spent time massaging her gums, tickling her head and singing to her. Also gave her calpol. This all took about 3 minutes and she was asleep again. My DH and I were shocked. Did the same last night, only it took about 30 minutes to resettle her. Her gums are really sore so its only to be expected. My D woke again at 11pm and was really upset so I gave in and fed her - literally for 5 minutes and she pulled off herself again and went to sleep. She slept until 5.40am so not too bad a night.

Muslimah, I agree with beancounting - if my DD has a later nap we still go through our bedtime routine at the same time...usually she will go to bed as normal. If she doesn't it still means we are being consistent. I usually don't resettle my DD when she wakens from her naps, as TBH, it rarely works for us! However, I have learned not to run through to her room as soon as she wakens as often she will stir, blether (and somtimes shout!) then go back to sleep.

Beancounting, I was thinking the same thing r: the PPO. My DD is sometimes so sleepy when I pull her off, but she is still sucking, so I assume she is still slightly awake? Not sure if I should be taking her off earlier. Hoping someone else can answer this for us!

Sorry for typo, typing mega fast while my DD is napping!

i havent done the sleeep diary yet cos we were at my mums tuesday then yesterday what should have been an hour journey home turned into the journey from hell :( all because i got stuck in a filter lane on the m25 and then missed my turning off :( then got stuck in standstill traffic :( so ds spent 2 extra hours in the car sleeping and we even had to stop in a service station to change and feed him! I was so miserable when i got home :(

so yday was all totally messed up, but im hoping to do it tonight or tomorrow night.

I do the PPO when ds stops sucking as he seems half asleep when hes drinking his milk anyway, but i do admit sometimes i wait a bit when im worries hell wake up too much if i pull him off too soon. I know that defeats the purpose a bit, i just sometimes cant face a full resettling from awake mode....

Hi, can I join please? Planning to start this after Christmas. Gotta dash, have a wriggler on my knee :-)

oh dear Muslimah, that sounds like a nightmare journey! hope it didn't disrupt things too much.

We seem to be going backwards at night at the moment - awake from 10pm till midnight last night and then very unsettled from 4am till 6am. She wasn't really awake but kept crying and whimpering so I was getting up to resettle her every 15 minutes or so. In the end I brought her into bed with us and she slept like a log until 8am - I don't understand why she will sleep in her crib ok (well, relatively speaking!) in the earlier part of the night but not later on.

On the plus side we had a nap breakthrough today - I put her in the pushchair for her 1st nap but was trying to tidy up round her so instead of pushing it I just sang to her and she fell asleep within 5 minutes! And then at lunchtime I tried feeding her in the bedroom with her bedtime music on and in her gro-bag, did the PPO and put her in her crib and she napped for an hour and a half (with some resettling in the middle which she normally refuses for naps).

How's everyone else getting on?