Support thread for no-cry sleep plans

[beancounting]

Following on from another thread about rubbish sleepers, this is a thread for anyone trying to implement a NCSS-type plan to improve their DC's sleep, where we can share plans, provide moral support and try and keep each other on track!

Over the past week we have been working on getting 5mo DD to sleep in her own bed rather than co-sleep (which we have been doing more and more for about the last 2 months), and have been making some progress, with 3 nights spent entirely in her bed and 3 where she came into our bed after about 4am.

So I'm now thinking of moving on to the next stage, with the objective of reducing the number of times DD wakes in the night from 5 or 6 to 3 or 4 - but at the moment I BF her to sleep at night and she can't self-settle when she wakes up.

My plan for this is to use the Pantley Pull Off to gently break the BF-to-sleep association (and gradually progress to putting her down more awake) and to try spacing out night feeds a bit (I've been working on trying to get her to feed more in the day so I don't think she really needs to feed that often at night - she's now only sucking for 5 minutes or so before she nods off again), initially by rocking her back to sleep rather than just automatically feeding her.

If you've used the PPO, how long did it take to break the BF/sleep association? How did you know when to try to remove your DC from the breast? Pantley says something about the sucks becoming light and fluttery but DD seems to go straight from strong fast sucks to falling off the breast fast asleep so I keep getting the timing wrong.

And is it realistic to try and space the night feeds from 2 hourly to 3 hourly, or should I work up to that by pushing them back by say 15 minutes at a time?

Does anyone else have any plans they're working on at the moment, so we can compare notes on progress etc?

Sounds like some real progress there newmum, it looks really good when it's written down like that, most encouraging! Hopefully you won't be back to square one after your visit to the in-laws, even though things have gone a bit wrong for us (and we seem to be back to feeding to sleep, which had actually stopped working ...), it's still better than it was. It's really hard when people ask about DD's sleep (and worse when they actually see it in practice ) because I'm convinced everyone thinks our issues are down to my our bad parenting so I tend to take even helpful comments as criticism...

Right muslimah, I think we both need to get back in the saddle, so to speak! I've been putting off getting serious again because there's been lots of disruption and we all feel a bit under the weather, but then there's never a good time and I'm worried if i lose focus we'll end up going backwards. So tonight I will try to PPO at each feed (without getting too impatient, I think I've been trying too soon so she wakes up again 10 minutes later still hungry!), will try to resettle by stroking/rocking on each awakening and only feed if it doesn't work - aiming for 3 hour gaps between feeds after midnight) and not co-sleep until after 4am. I'm going to try and remember to do a sleep log as well. [positive thinking emoticon]

And your DH is right, DD doesn't know how to go to sleep either, it's ridiculous when I would find it so easy given half a chance! Does your DS fall asleep when rocked in your arms or just in the hammock? We have had some success recently with "rocking" DD without picking her up - basically putting an arm under her head and one under her knees as if I was going to scoop her out of her crib, but not actually lifting her out, just rocking a bit while her bum stays on the mattress IYSWIM. It seems to send her to sleep ok but it's tricky to extricate your arms without waking her (and it's tough on the back) - I wonder if you could try that when you move him to the cot? WRT to the transition to the cot, could you start with trying for one nap a day in it and see how it goes? that way you still have the hammock as a fallback but gradually he should get more used to the idea?

Sorry for the long rambling post, DD is actually asleep on my lap (after resisting a nap in the pushchair so I'm tied to the sofa and therefore free to MN! I don't want to wake her as I think she needs it but she's supposed to be having a bath now - god knows what effect this will have on the night!

Hello, I've spent the last week trying to a) bring bedtime forward and b) institute a bedtime routine with lots of strong sleep associations I can cash in on later on when growth spurts or other obstacles get in the way of settling little one. Only trouble is I think my 12 wk old is doing a (developmental?) spurt now, and getting over a cold and pre-teething. So I feel like I have some stuff against me for starters.

Mixed success. I have brought bedtime forward from about midnight (After 11pm feed following a 'wrestle to sleep' as baby wanted to play first) to about 20:00-20:30, after my 7pm feed. My feeds are structured following feeding/weight problems (its a long boring sob story) we've been on a 2 hour then 2 hour now 4 hour feeding regime.

Inspsired by the suggestion on page 105, I started by trying to 'trick' baby, who sleeps in her pram in the day and moses basket at night by bringing the (pram) carry cot into her (darkened) room for the 11pm feed as if we were in the middle of the night, and waking her a bit early for this last feed of the evening. The low lights etc meant I could practically dream feed her and she went down faster (not expecting activity and a long settling period). This kind of worked, so my next challenge was the bedtime routine I wrote one up and had a go, after the 7pm feed, again this worked quite well, we have got her to bed as early as 20:10 with no increased wakings (two feeds still 11pm and 3am but I've had one night where these were uneventful short dream feeds).

So all in all quite good but I've had a 3 05:30 wakings the 2nd half of the week (not hungry just awake, which never has happened before) I've resettled her but then she is up again about 06:30-07:00 for the day so sleep wise a short nap and not much use to either of us.I think this could be related to a growth/developmental spurt as her daytime naps are more disturbed than usual (I have to keep resettling her also which is not normal)

Also last night I couldn't do any of the above and it all went badly wrong she was over tired and hysterical uncontrollable crying, struggled to get her to sleep (no time for the routine) and then we had this extra early waking again for 30 mins then her morning nap has been disturbed, I had to resettle once then she woke half hour early despite being behind on sleep - I will try again tonight.

Any input/observations are welcome

sorry just to clarify I couldn't do the bedtime routine because we were out between 6pm and 9.30pm and she only slept 30 mins during this period - hence overtired and going mental

Hello everyone and Happy New Year!

This is a great thread although I haven't had a chance to read everything through: a gastric bug and my 3DCs have been keeping me exhausted busy.

My third DC is 11 months old. She generally eats well during the day and is now having no breast milk from morning until evening.

Night time, however, is another matter! She has ALwAys merrily cluster fed her way through evenings and wakes up regularly during the night. Her last feed will be around 7am. I realise I am entirely responsible for this as I co-sleep with her as I did with my other 2DCs. However they did not snack their way through the night as much as she does. What can I say; she's a big-boned baby

Daytime naps have really come on. Whereas before she would feed to sleep and stay in our bed she now falls asleep in her cot with a little music and occasional tummy rub.

I am aiming to stop bf my little treasure around her 1st birthday end of January. We are also aiming to get her to sleep in her cot and, obviously, not clamour for breastmilk at all hours of the night. I really don't mind, however, if she comes into the bed again in the early hours of the morning. So how do I start this? My eldest daughter thinks we should get her used to falling asleep in her cot in the evening BEFORE I wean her completely. How do I cut down on a huge feedathon? We've bought a lovely bottle, formula, a sleep CD and even a hotwater bottle to keep her cot nice and warm. I know, pathetic, right? I really don't want her to cry much, especially as she may wake up her siblings who will be returning to school.

Gosh I hope that was clear. Any advice will be gratefully received.

Hi bean, it does sound encouraging when written down- although she is still waking very frequently (best was 2.5 hours when put down for night last night) and getting up in the middle if the night for an hour plus fairly regularly. I think it was her teeth last night, she was very sore today and we had a bad night even though I got her to go to sleep in her bed having ppo-ed her quite early. Hopefully I will reap the benefits soon in terms of actual sleep for me instead of just promising signs like longer naps etc. Also, there has already been a bust up before we even get to the in laws over leaving her to cry, we've been told that we should "listen to practical advice rather than what we've read in a book, we're making a rod for our own backs" (that phrase was actually used) etc. Joy.

Hello sedgie and jardins .

welcome sedgie and jardins

newmum perhaps you can explain to your in laws no cry sleep mthods are not just invented by elizabeth pantley! She summarises them in a wonderful handy book, but there are many rl stories to show they work! (must remind myself of this regularly too tho!)

bean we started sleep training again officially on wednesday. Mixed resukts so far, some good moments (sleeping for longer stretches sometimes) some not so good when NOTHING will resettle ds for AGES

we have recently discovered rocking on our legs (lying down on the bed with legs bent, ds lying on our legs and rocking from side to side iyswim!). He wont rock to sleep in arms so this new discovery has been a saviour. Ive also noticed he will sleep from a slightly more awake state this way than being rocked in the hammock. So better for teaching self settling. Am trying to do this more so we can wean off hammock.

Ppo not going so well, mainly bc im still getting back into sleep training myself, so many times im giving up just to get some sleep...

Has anyone tried water instead of a feed to cut out night feeds? Dh keeps suggesting this, i havent tried it bc i cant get my head round which of the numerous night wakings i should replace with water?!

Phew, newmum, it's hard enough already without people making those kind of helpful remarks, isn't it?? I just keep thinking that the babies are only doing what they're designed to do, the problem is that it doesn't fit that well with our modern lifestyles, and so all we can do as loving parents is gently encourage our DCs into behaviour that works a bit better for all of us, rather than trying to "train" them through CIO methods which run counter to our natural instincts to comfort and soothe. If that looks like a rod to someone else then so be it, it's my rod and my back so none of their business! Hard to just nod and smile and ignore such advice though!

Rocking on legs sounds familiar muslimah, DD used to like that though we haven't tried it recently. At least it's an alternative to work on, presumably the more ways he gets used to falling asleep the better. Hope you get more good moments over the next few days!

My HV did suggest trying water but like you I've no idea when you would introduce it, plus it's not quite as convenient as BF in the middle of the night (and as DD is normally still half asleep when I feed her, she'd need to wake up properly to take a cup (doesn't do bottles) and would probably end up with most of it down her front anyway...).

Hi sedgie, how have you got on with your bedtime routine over the past couple of nights? it sounds like promising progress at first at least. I don't know about the early wakings, they could be developmental or could just be that your DD is still settling into her new sleeping pattern. Unfortunately I'm afraid 11 or 12 weeks is where it all went wrong for us sleepwise, so I have my fingers crossed for you!

Welcome jardins - you're a lot further down the line than me and at least you know that your DD doesn't need to feed at night, I'm never sure whether DD is hungry or not so usually err on the side of caution! I guess using the Pantley pull off to break the feed to sleep association at night might be useful as a starting point, does she have a bedtime routine at the moment, and does she start off in her own bed or is she in yours from the off? at least she's used to sleeping in the cot in the day, so in theory at least she knows how!

Things not going well for us at the moment, DD has a cold and is waking every hour or so all congested and miserable, basically to suck herself back to sleep . I'm still trying to do PPO most some of the time and resisting co-sleeping until late but she's refusing to settle without feeding, so so much for the positive thinking! And the fireworks last night didn't help either - when the clock struck twelve I'd been in bed for over 2 hours but had already been woken up 3 times, which was a bit depressing for new year's eve! here's to a new year full of sleep for us all!

Hi all! Have skimmed through this thread and I feel SO MUCH BETTER, knowing that there are other mums out there like me!

We tried CC due to peer pressure- 2.5 hours of HELL, which I never want to repeat. I've felt like the world's most terrible mother for a while now, asking myself why I didn't listen to my mother and NOT co-sleep / feed to sleep. However, I'm on my own with DS (7 months old) most of the time (no family nearby, DP working shifts) and I just wanted an easy life! (i.e. to sleep!)

I'd like:

• DP to be able to come back into the bed (that me and DS have taken over as our own)
• DS to sleep in his own bed
• DS to wake less at night so I can have a moment to myself (and spend time with DP)
• to be able to put DS to bed without nursing him to sleep
• Ultimately, for someone other than me to put DS to bed sometimes.

We started the plan but DS got sick so I've been waiting for him to recover. This evening I tried putting him down in his cot flat out asleep after nursing on the bed lying down (I got the sheet smelling of me by sleeping on it for a few nights and warmed it up, nice and cosy). He woke up an hour later and each time I tried to put him down again, he woke and cried so I rocked him back to sleep.
Even if he was flat out asleep, as soon as I put him down, he'd wake. I spent 3 hours like this and of course got totally worked up a few times, especially when he was pushing me away and arching his back but breathed deeply and tried to persevere.
In the end, I gave up and laid him down on our bed and the little monkey stayed asleep! Grrrrr!

I feel so desperate atm. I've even considered leaving him to cry it out :(

Is there anyone out there who's had success with removing the sucking to sleep association? I've even considered weaning DS onto a bottle but he won't have that either, nor will he take a dummy. HEYELP!

Re early waking times, I'm having good nights and bad nights but mostly bad! Last night after feeding at bedtime around 7pm and a 20:30 bedtime, a nice fast dream feed at midnight and then 3 am (baby going straight back down) from 4.30 onwards very restless and diffficult to settle. I ended up from 6am taking her in the bed with me and letting her sleep on me/by me suckling on and off until suddenly it was 8am and she wanted a bottle (we mix feed unfortunately, she can't get of a feed enough from me)

I think this is both developmental (I saw her head going from left to right and back again over and over around 4am, does that mean anything?) and her congestion following a cold is worse at night somehow also she is showing signs of teething. But I'm not really sure how to break the pattern of early wakings, sleep is OK from about 8pm to 4am but unless I go to bed when she does I'm wrecked.

I just got the wonder weeks book, I'm hoping the 'sunny weeks'around the corner might make a difference.

Oh I'm getting this advice not to read books and go on mumsnet for advice, and to listen to my instincts and go with the flow. But I dont feel very 'instinctive' yet and going with the flow and having no schedule has only got me in more trouble (naps dont happen, overtired screaming etc)

Hi, I have a 15mo sleep refusenik, she goes through phases of OKish sleep and really really crap sleep. Guess which it is atm

I bought NCSS recently in desperation and I'm trying to implement some of the ideas, not much in the way of success just yet but it's early days. She's teething (back teeth) and she had a disturbed night on NYE as we have neighbours from different parts of the world who saw fit to do their fireworks at their own country's midnight so we had loads of really loud fireworks at 10pm as well as midnight (grumble grumble killjoy)

She was breastfed until a couple of months ago and has a dummy. I'm considering using the PPO to get rid of the dummy but something tells me to sort her sleep out with the dummy in place and then remove the dummy later - not sure why, perhaps because it's so useful for calming her down when she's upset during the day, if she falls over for example.

I've only quickly read the book through so I need to read it again properly. The only thing we've done so far is to introduce a more consistent bed time routine that involves some proper wind down time. I have a 6yo as well who loves to play with her little sister, great for most of the time but at bed time she tends to forget that dd2 needs to wind down for sleep and carries on with the tickling and rough and tumble.

Had a terrible night last night- Bub went down at 8, woke up twice before my bed time at 10.30 and then woke again at midnight and didn't go back to sleep til 3a.m (and woke again 3 times between 3 and 8.30 when he woke for the day) I tried everything to get him back to sleep during his 3 hour wakeful stint. In the end I just sat there, feeling numb and trying not to lose the plot.

Feel like I'm losing my sanity and DP, bless him asked the girls at work and they said to give DS cow's milk in a bottle with baby rice mixed in because he's obv not getting enough to eat in the day!

I'm not sure how much more I can take. :(

Hi zombielady - sorry to hear about your crap night (and to the baby rice and cows milk suggestion!), if it's any comfort ours was pretty rubbish as well: down at 6.30, awake again at 8, then 9, then 10.30 - and then we had 3 hours of feeding/rocking/screaming hysterically/dosing with calpol/vomiting/changing clothes (mine and hers)/giant poo/changing clothes/feeding/rocking until she fell asleep about 1.30. And then awake again at 4am, 6am, 7am and up at 8am. She does have a cold which she's struggling with at night (more congested etc...

On a more positive note, before we started with the NCSS I had to feed her to sleep, wait until she was in a deep sleep and then put her down, and it really wasn't that long (just a week or so I think) after starting with the Pantley pull off, rocking instead of feeding etc that I was able to put her down in a light sleep and stroke her for a few minutes until she settled - which might not sound that impressive but it made a huge difference to the overall amount of sleep I was getting each night. So maybe it will just suddenly fall into place for you too?

The wakefulness in the middle of a night is a nightmare though, is he crying during that time or just awake and wanting to be cuddled? It doesn't solve it but I find listening to an audio book while just cuddling her (as long as she's not crying and needing me to actually do something!) helps me get through it - otherwise I just get really wound up and frustrated.

Hi tigerfeet, let us know how you get on with the pre bedtime winddown. I think I'd be inclined to agree with you about sorting out sleep first and dummy later!

Is the Wonder Weeks book good sedgie? might add it to the list I'm ordering from the library. I do wish I'd spent as much time sleeping as I have reading about sleeping over the last few months...

Hey everyone, can I join? Just started actioning the NCSS tonight!

DD1 is 4 months old and EBF. Ive been feeding her every 2 hours in the night but am sure this is just for comfort, not hunger.

DD is very chubby and cheerful and just blooming, however I am not! I am really tired and all my NCT friends seem to be regaining their lives while I still feel shattered and cranky. We need a happy medium with happy baby AND happy mum!

Will not contemplate CC so really hope to break the breast-sleep association using PPO.

Our bedtime routine is decent and DD goes down fine. Its the frequent night awakenings I hope to reduce or eliminate.

From what I can see so far, the Wonder Weeks is really interesting, it does seem to explain things to me about this last week or two (wk 12 is called leap 3) I think I am buying into what I'm reading as some of it sounds familiar (skills she has suddenly developed coinciding with unsettled behavior and sleep). The book is quite specific about changes at particular ages and how it affects baby because their world suddenly rapidly changes and this is unsettling for them, then there is a knock on effect for mum who is trying to care for a crank clingy and wired baby. At the very least it helps you to sit out these periods with some additional patience and understanding and the section on activities/games to play with your baby at that particular age is helpful - for a first time mum like me in any case.

Interestingly after a bad night last night, a very settled day with good naps today and a 'sunny baby', she has hit 13 weeks (which is supposed to be a better period ahead of the 4 month spurt/leap) so we will see what tonight brings!

You may have seen this pdf for the good weeks/bad weeks:
www.thewonderweeks.com/extras/WW_info_chart.pdf

beancounting thanks for the encouragement! Sounds like you had a terrible night the other night- at least mine was vomit and poo free! DS doesn't tend to cry when he wakes, just wants to suck and sometimes to play. However, if he's denied his way he does get very frustrated and pushes me away, which is probably the most upsetting bit.

sedgiebaby Wonderweeks sounds really interesting- I just looked at the pdf and the website and it seems DS has probably gone through the phase of realising I can walk away from him, which is the reason why he's been a monster during the day as well as sleeping badly at night!

Last night was a bit better but I completely scrapped my plan for a peaceful night's sleep. Let's see what tonight brings. I may concentrate on day sleep first as I very badly need some nightsleep, despite the poor quality of it!

Hats off to you mj for having to deal with two of them, one is bad enough so I don't know how you do it. I was thinking that managing to get your DD down with PUPD sounded like a success but then I saw your other thread - sounds like you're having a horrendous time of it . And you raise a query that I've wondered about, which is how exactly do they fall asleep when they get so overtired and overstimulated by PUPD or similar that they're screaming and hysterical?? I guess the NCSS would say to give up for the night if either you or DC get too upset and try again next time, but that presumably is just prolonging the agony... Fingers crossed for you for tonight.

sedgiebaby thanks for the link, the chart is really interesting and it does help me feel less like it's something I've done to make her sleep badly - I need to fill it in to see which weeks to clear the diary for!

Have decided to start with daytime naps for boob removal because I just can't cope at night- it's too knackering!

Had some success today- have DS his lunch and then a little feed for dessert (we're doing BLW but he's still EBF until he eats more), pushed him in the buggy but he started wailing so tried rocking in the chair but he just rooted and wailed more. Ended up holding him in my arms whilst bouncing on my exercise ball. After 5 mins he was asleep but wouldn't go down in the cot, only in the bed. Oh well, baby steps, eh?

Oh yeah and I talked to our pediatrician today at our 6-7 month checkup and he was very much for 'crying it out'. Of course, he's a medical professional but I'm still not convinced.

And mine! Useless bloody HVs. I know it would never work on DS - he is definitely one of those babies that gets worked up into a frenzy when he cries. I read on a blog once about someone whose baby crird so long and loudly during a cry it out session that the police turned up!

Haven't posted for a while as DS's sleep has been shite for the last week or so, but we've been having some success with the putting down drowsy thing in the last day or so. We're still on phase one so we rock him until he closes his eyes and plonk him straight down. I have to hold him down to stop him wriggling but if I can get him to stay still I can now shh him to sleep from eyes open. Sometimes takes a few pick up/put downs but he seems to be getting the idea.

He's still waking up every 2.5 hrs though - wonder if the four- month sleep regression could be upon us ...

Hope you enjoyed your well-deserved G&T mj - how've you been getting on the last couple of nights? 2 hours of PUPD sounds horrendous but it also sounds like it paid off if she then slept till 9. Hopefully you're starting to see some improvement now.

We've had two days where DD has had very long naps (2.5 to 3 hours) in the morning, a 30 minute one in the afternoon and then a rubbish bedtime - clearly tired and sleepy, practically dropping off on the boob followed by wide awake and perky when transferred to her bed. Weds night she finally went to sleep at 9 (followed by a very restless night), last night it was 10 although we had a much better night after that (2 wakings!). I've no idea if the long naps caused the rubbish bedtime or if they are both caused by developmental changes, she's at the 26 week "stormy" period according to that Wonder Weeks chart (she's 24 weeks but was 2 weeks late), or if it's just one of those things. She is still full of cold and I've just felt a tooth coming (1st one!) so not sure that would help either.

I actually made it worse last night because when she started to fall asleep in my arms at about 9pm I tried to put her in the crib with my arms round her - she wasn't having any of it and got quite wound up so after an hour of screaming in my arms I ended up feeding her to calm her down and get her to sleep. I'm rubbish at being consistent at times like this because once she gets in a real state she's never yet calmed down without BF and I've never been brave enough to just persevere for hours to see what happens! but I take your point mj, it isn't going to get any easier.