Policywonk, in Hobbs and em and ess, LIVE FROM THE G20

[policywonk]

YOWZA

Have all the power shifts in recent UK politics been down to economic crashes? At least the last three? [Callaghan/Thatcher/Blair]

Won't people just vote Cameron hoping for the economy to improve?

Policywonk - "Have a kneejerk dislike of private sector so socialist in that respect I suppose - but can't imagine how society would work without private property."

Would it be cruel of me to sum it up by saying you pay lipservice to fairness and equality but you draw the line at living in a council house?

Um - I don't think so... (I don't think that's a fair summing up, I mean)

I don't object to private property - I can that it can be problematic, but I think humans have a pretty basic desire to label things as theirs, and there's no point setting up a political system that works against that.

When I say private sector, I mean profit-making enterprises, specifically those that get involved in things that are necessary to health, happiness and society's wellbeing - education, healthcare, childcare, sanitary provision, transport. I'd rather pay higher taxes and have these things provided by the state - and yes, I do think the state is better at delivering these things on a universal basis (as they should be delivered). Profit-making enterprises only want to deliver these things where they will make a profit.

Going to eat risotto.

What is the moral/political difference between opting out of state pre-school childcare and opting out of state education at 7 or 11 or whatever age? The former seems to be wholeheartedly embraced by dye in the wool liberals and the latter is frowned upon. Yet private nurseries are often hugely profit-making and independent schools are most often non-profit making.

Well I was including pre-school childcare under my 'childcare' heading, so I can't help you with that one

Maybe it's because private sector provision is the norm for preschool, so the social apartheid factor is much reduced? (Yes, I know not all private school children necessarily come from wealthy/privileged backgrounds, but you've got to admit that a disproportionate number do.)

we all end up dead but perhaps in a country so dominated historically by feudalism it is about leaving something for your children to own.

Private schools should be unnecessary of course. If State schools were small, decentralised and catered to the individual child's need, helping each to fulfil their own potential. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

the way we build flats is so hideous. My friend in Vienna lives in block with large rooms and large windows, built around a private courtyard with its own playground. There is a room downstairs just for prams. Middle class families live in apartments. We don't design flats for families in this country.

Swedes just dipping in very briefly, but surely it's been shown that private schools are non-profit-making to the degree that they can claim huge non-tax-paying/charitable status?

ie. they are not non-profit-making enterprises because they exist for the benefit to the community, but in order to make full (and imo dishonest) use of the benefits available to npe's?

Argh - want to join in with this but typing too slowly. Will post my thoughts whe nthe discussion has moved on miles.

No A&E thankfully - there's a minor injuries clinic not far away that lovely GP friend works for one day a week, so when he'd had a look he sent us there and phioned ahead to tell them we were coming.

right - as you were.

Oh good. We have one of those near us - they're good aren't they? I used it when DS2 poked me very hard in the eye a couple of months ago - would have been such an annoyance to queue in A+E for hours just to be told I'd scratched my eyeball.

Lenin, do you read stuff by Julie Bindel? Was reminded by your comment about the lesbian seperatists. I think she's great but she wrote an article in the Graun recently about how hetero feminists should choose lesbianism. Seems weird viewpoint to me.

Onebat - Removing Independent Schools' charitable status is more politics of distraction. There are approx 620,000 independently educated youngsters in the UK and they collectively receive tax breaks of £100M per annum. That is £161.29 per independently educated pupil per annum. It's hardly a huge tax break.

PW - I think the idea that the state provides things best is wrong.

but that wasn't what I was asking Swedes - do those schools assume non-profit-making-status genuinely exist for the community? or do they attempt to be, as organizations, tax-neutral iyswim?

As far as I can see, if they are npm, they can claim huge benefits when they build the new swimming-pool, which they wouldn't be able to do as a business.

Yes, that's the thing isn't it - hard to think of men as the enemy when you've given birth to one.

Will have to buy Spirit Level I think.

"why do we value something [gold] that can't shelter or feed us?"

We value it precisely because it can't shelter or feed us. Because it is twinkly and special and reminds us of our human capacity for things over and above necessity. And because such things stand in for other things which we do need because we can't value them so easily.

I've always thought doing away with abstract values a bit mad. While retaining my deeply leftist principles obv.

[argh. must continue work. only 375 more words to go]

[though glass of cava patently a bad idea]

your attention please to the 'should it be MANSnet ' thread.

Not sure if I"m right or wrong, would value all comment.

Um. Er. I dunno what I think about this one. I don't mind them. Apart from the weirdly salacious newcomer Jeremy, all the obvious men I've staggered over on MN have brought something useful and interesting.

I've no idea what their motivation is.

I think I probably agree with you and thready that there's something about the liberating openness of this being mostly women that doesn't exist anywhere else in my life. But I also think that is something to do with it being anonymous. I think I value the opportunity to pretend to be interesting a tiny bit more than the sisterhood.

But I'm pretty dim agnostic on the issue. Will think more once have finished sleeping reviewing book.

WIlf - that's a great post. I agree. Paintings, sculpture, literature, music theatre. Life would be totally joyless if it was entirely about necessity.

OBM - Charities only get to claim the VAT back.... so no 'huge savings' at all. I can't see a school forking out £150,000 for a pool purely to themselves the 15% VAT. And they are exempt from VAT because they are a charity and in order to be a large charity you have to satisfy the public benefit test. If you bought a plot of land and got builders to build you a new house for you and your family, you would be able to claim back the VAT. Without satisfying any public benefit test. So it is a huge big fuss over nothing. Also an awful lot of independent schools are listed buildings and any work to listed buildings (and their curtilage) is free of VAT in any case so they would have a separate legitimate right to claim back the VAT in any case. Sorry to be so crabby.

Where is 'should it be MANSnet ' thread?

Am actually quite fed up with having pinned my colours onto the flagstaff with this one and having said colours distorted by all and sundry. Plus don't actually care about it over much.

(I don't mean distorted by you lot. I mean by those who seem to keep on thinking I have said that all men should vacate the building.

I didn't really think I'd said anything out of the standard opinion. I am too old. I just don'tg get post-feminism.

Anyhow, I'm slightly more exercised by the fact that you think the bunny ears reminiscent of cocks.

Is there something we need to know about MrWorm and his affliction , er, meat?