dear MN HQ could you please be so kind as to explain to me publicaly why you allow thread like the super race one

[saint2shoes]

to continue? IMO it has some very offensive posts on it, but you still have not pulled it.

Hi 2shoes,
We don't generally delete things on the grounds of likelihood to offend so long as we have no reason to believe the poster is deliberately stirring. If the motive is to discuss a difficult issue, then unless the posts actually break the law, we usually let the discussion stand. The reason is that if we didn't it would be extremely difficult to draw the line and be consistent. If we start deleting things that cause offence who are we to decide who's hurt is more or less valid - basically we'd end up deleting anything and everything. Eg I could imagine someone being very hurt about a knife crime discussion if their relative had just suffered a knife attack.

So we usually let things stand and encourage folk to explain why posts offend them - this often has the effect of educating people and making them more empathetic.

Eugenics is a contentious issue but a very current one and one that our generation is going to have to wrestle with. It seems valid to allow it's discussion on MN as MN is a discussion site.

With regard to your thread asking for an anti-disabled topic. Clearly we wouldn't countenance that a thread asking for it is asking for it as it's disablist in itself.

(We know you were being sarcastic but others who read it may not).

Best,
MNHQ

No Riven, force was one of the options, and its not been the most successful strategy. When the Union won the war the Confederatss didn;t sinply say, 'okay, you won. We aren't racist anymore'. It took years, it's still taking years. By education mostly.

Women didn't force people to stop being sexist. The radical feminists who tried to 'force' people by intimidaytion and even bombing did a great diservice to feminism actually.

No one likes having anyhting shoved down their throats. And if you want to stop someone beinf racist, the worst thing you can do is call them that. It depends on what your goal is; just lashing out to feel some kind of cathasis for yourself, or if you want to get your point across so others can see the value in it.

So who are the 'twunts'?

I'll leave you to ponder that one..

Thank you for your reply Justine, that clears a lot up for me.

By Monkeytrousers on Sun 25-Jan-09 18:28:22
Well just becasue you believe life begins at conception doesn't make it so, Riven. So you also obvioulsy don't believe in a womans right to abortion.

2shoes, you are in no position to judge this thread as 'anti-disabled'. I happen to work with disabled people very often and have had many many very sophicticated discussioins with the disablity rights community. My partner works for disablity rights and with people with all kinds of imparements. Someone posing a question about the ethics of eugenics does not make them facist, or whatever. Dangerous ideas need to be discussed out in the open, because if they are not, who had the chance to reign them in when they pass a certain ethical or moral line?

Do you think ethics commitees have taboo subjects? No. They cannot afford to.

But jumping to extremely negative conclussions about people - people who you have no evidence are what you seem to think they are, soley on the basis of one encounter where you disagree, where many a time on MN you might agree - just isn't fair to them.

Disagee by all means, but give these people the courtesy of thinking them not complete maniacs until they out themselves unequivacably. Theres no such evidence on this thread.

IMO this I think proves that MT is an expert in the field, and we should take not and reapect all her views. because she knows what it is like to hsav a disabled child and to expierence the day to day stuff that wea as parents to disabled children do.(or as disabled people)

you don't have to witness something 1st hand to know about it 2shoes.....i know alot about the fire of london, but it wasn't me who started it.

pmsl

Ohh, adhominem MS. Very classy

oh stop with the long words

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

see I said you were an expert and still you are not happy.

Lol Ms. Scroll down though

"It is also used when an opponent is unable to find fault with an argument, yet for various reasons, the opponent disagrees with it."

Anyway, can we get back to the point?..What is the point?

no idea what the point is tbh, Justine has answered my question, so is there a point?
or shall we just stay on the round a bout?

[didn't ask you anything MT if you were replying to me, merely clarifying your statement ]

I saw taht thread's Op and haven't been back.

I decided a long time ago that i will never be able to cure all ignorance so there was no point wasting my time and energy getting insanely angry trying to.

good [point mamazon and tbh now I have read MN HQ'S views I have given up.

It's a flipping debate!

You know, people talking about their beliefs and opinions, swapping information, seeking a mutual understanding and consensus around an issue. We are not living in Soviet Russia and as such have a right to free speech and debate.

If people hold odd or slightly extreme views, they may have their minds changed by such a thread and the contributions from people who actually know what they're talking about. Thank god political correctness does not yet rule the world- that way lie censorship and curtailment of free speech.

I totally agree duchesse.
You ill find me on most of the debates spouting whatever my view is and enjoying the fact that on at least a few occasions my opinion has been altered by some of the intellectual comments from people on here.

but at the same time, when a subject is so close to your heart and tehre are people who really do not have the first idea of what they are talking about trying to tell you, someone who lives that life daily, that your wrong...it all gets a tad difficult to swallow.

This has been my point all along though. We have to keep talking and have the right to talk.

Just because you find something distasteful it doesn't mean others can't hold that view AND they have a right to express that view AND by talking to someone who holds the opposite view they MIGHT change their initial thoughts.

I wish someone would actually say what they are on about, instead of accusing everuone else of not knowing what they are on about.

I'm dizzy.

Mamazon - its not about killing disabled people or thinking them invalid.

Can someone please tell me the problems with my opinion that, "I happen to think the ability to remove disease causing genes from the gene pool is a good thing.

That does not mean I think all fetus' with genetic conditions should be terminated, or that I think disabled people are a drain on society. It's just a technological advance that could help a lot of people live longer and enjoy a better quality of life - if they choose it."

Just sticking to these issues and not loading me in with other peoples opinions or slipperly slope catastrophic thinking?

as i say, i haven't read the thread as i know it will cause me to become emotional...you wouldn't like me when im angry

i would suggest that having the opinion you do anout "cleansing" the gene pool would make total sense to most people who have not been touched by someone who has one of the disabilitties that are being mentioned.

by saying that it would be much better if we got rid of these diseases/imperfections we are essentially saying that it would have been better if those who have already contracted these dieseases, been born with these "imperfections" are somehow not worthy. that they shouuld have been dealt with to save us all teh time and bother.

I know that that isn't what you mean MT. (or at least i bloody well hope its not) but this is a very emotional subject, partciualry for those arguing from the experience side.
Its all very easy to see it as black and white until you have to look into the eyes of a child you love and realise that had the boffins had their way that child may never have existed.

Only read half of the other thread and I am a parent to a disabled child and another who has special needs

I don't see screening embryos for certain illness/disease as being against the disabled person. No one is saying it would need to be compulsory and all disabled people are worthless. They would be screening for conditions not disability.

It is an extension of the antenatal screening women are offered today. Some famillies would not continue the pregnancy and some will go ahead with absolute joy.

There will always be disability in this world as many aren't brought about by illness or disease, most are brain injuries at birth or later in life, spinal injuries or learning difficulties I doubt anyone could ever screen for as the brain is such a complex organ

Yes, we need to become more disability aware in the country, we need better services and understanding. We need to educate others, but there are ways of doing that, brushing it under the carpet because some peoples views are ignorant or downright rude won't help the disabled. Talking about it will give action, even if it only makes one person today think differently

'Can someone please tell me the problems with my opinion that, "I happen to think the ability to remove disease causing genes from the gene pool is a good thing.'

Nothing at all MT but then I can't imagine you wold ever use the word superrace as a positive thing in a thread title

so we goa round and around in curcles as to what upset people do we not?

MT
OK - not an 8 year old boy then as you are obviously not a genius - and clearly have no sense of irony or humour at all.

You seem to feel under attack here so I shall assume that anything I post will be treated aggressively and leave.