Smoking in pregnancy

[GeraldineMumsnet]

Please can you do our super-quick survey - one question! thank you

I agree [said it way back] the risks are not known. Not by a large chunk of the population. It's a phrase, no more. 'smoking is bad for you' 'smoking causes small babies'. Unless you know how that can impact on you or the child what does it mean? Nothing!

Government always tends to take the simplist line for public helath education. 'Breast is best'is another non statement. SO WHAT? People have to know why, how, what will his cost me, what will this cost my family.

I'd just like to say that i agree with SGB, Edam etc. re the mysogyny and I don't smoke and didn't drink or smoke during my pregnancies.

if it were a fact that all smokers' babies died in utero or suffered lifelong disabilities, then PG women wouldn't smoke (oh, partly because there wouldn't be many PG women. Because there would be an awful lot less people around and the human race would probably have reached the point of no return with regard to reproduction if smoking was that dangerous to foetuses, given the decades when the majority of people smoked heavily).
The main reason it's important to defend a pregnant woman's right to smoke, however risky it is, is: a pregnant woman is a human being. She is not a baby-machine and she has the same rights as any other human being to drink, smoke, take drugs, jump out of aeroplanes or decide to terminate her pregnancy. Foetuses are not people, they don't have 'rights' until they are born. Bcause the only way to give foetuses rights is to take rights away from women.

"As for stress - do non-smokers not suffer hard times then? Do they not have marriage break-ups or job losses and money worries?"

Yes, and for many of them managing to successfully quit smoking while going through that stress would be just the same as a pg woman tryinng to quit going through the same stress.

I am a bit concerned that this debate is becoming too polarised, and unhelpful.

Smoking in pregnancy is the single largest preventable cause of foetal and maternal ill health in the UK, and the impacts of smoking in pregancy also continue into childhood (and potentially into adulthood). As a feminist, I wish that the evidence on this could be dismissed on the basis of misogynistic researchers, but I am afraid that it can't.

Women who smoke are more likely to lose their baby and to suffer placental abruption or placenta praevia.

Children born to women who smoke in pregnancy are significantly more likely to be stillborn, to have IUGR, to be premature, to die in the fist four weeks of life, to suffer cot death, to develop asthma and to have other respiratory problems (eg hospitalisation for respiratory infections).

These risks are increased when babies are exposed to secondhand smoke after birth, which is the case for most babies whose mothers smoke in pregnancy, because hardly anyone who smokes through pregnancy gives up after their baby is born.

The point is that these are horrendous outcomes, and it would be unethical not to tell people about them. There may be arguments to be had about policing pregnant women's behaviour, but given that most women (and especially those with wanted pregnancies) desperately want to keep their babies safe, I think that it is a bit of an academic argument. I would certainly promote the right to know about the risks ahead of concerns about behaviour policing, which remains largely theoretical in the UK.

But smoking in pregnancy is also very common - according to the national feeding survey, more than one in every six pregnant women smoke throughout their pregancy, but it is likely that this is a huge underestimate because many women do not accurately report their smoking status to their midwife because of the stigma attached to smoking in pregnancy.

Smoking is an addiction, and it is not easy for women to quit. Women who smoke during pregnancy should never be automtically labelled as selfish, uncaring, or bad parents.

The condemnation approach is actually very unhelpful because it makes it less likely that women will feel able to be honest about smoking, and makes it harder to support them. It also contributes to guilt, and makes it harder for women to accept the size of the health risks both to them and their baby (which has been seen in this thread).

done

But so solid - a foetus becomes a human being in a lot of cases. And if that human then has health complications because their mother smoked it does not just affect the mother, it affects that person (the baby) potentially for all their lives.

as Firepile says: 'Children born to women who smoke in pregnancy are significantly more likely to be stillborn, to have IUGR, to be premature, to die in the fist four weeks of life, to suffer cot death, to develop asthma and to have other respiratory problems (eg hospitalisation for respiratory infections)'

those a people not foetuses.

I think I see where sosolid is coming from (even though I disagree with her about the "rights" of a foetus.

It's difficult to say to a woman

"it's your body, your choice, if you wish to abort then you can do"

then on the other say

"listen you can't do whatever you want during pregnancy because it's not just your body"

It does make some sense FAQ!, but if you decide to go ahead with a pregnancy then you are talking about two people.

It does make some sense FAQ!, but if you decide to go ahead with a pregnancy then you are talking about two people.

see that's where it gets tricky doesn't it.

Because a woman can decide not to continue with her pg up until 24 weeks (well I guess she has to make her mind up before then and I think most hospitals and clinics will only abort up to 18-20 weeks in "normal" circumstances.

So in some respects as a woman still has that "control" or "rights" over the future of the foetus/baby/person (however you personally see it) up until 24 weeks, can we then turn round and tell her she doesn't have rights in other areas.

Think it's quite complex really, although I guess that largely depends on each person own view on when "life" begins, and over the "rights" of an unborn foetus/baby.

"What is the point of all this condemnation. It's utterly counter-productive."

The point is the same as with all such collective condemnation - to push the individual into conforming with society's norms.

And it is very effective. For example, in places where having a baby out of wedlock is condemned by society, the rate of such babies is so low as to be effectively zero.

And how many pregnant women have you seen smoking... ever? The few pregnant women I know who smoked through their pregnancies did so only at home, because they couldn't bear "the dagger eyes", which limited their consumption.

Surely, that is a good thing.

Yes, a woman can do whatever she wants with her body & the fetus in it until 24th week of pregnancy.

This is why nobody has the right to forcefully stop a pregnant woman from smoking.

But we can and do judge

No, I don't judge. I don't judge or condemn pg women I don't know, because, well I don't know them. I don't know how much they smoke, or what their emotional situation is. Nor do I really care that much to know how much they smoke etc. It is their body, after all. There are other unsocial behaviours that I condemn, because they lead to a more tangible outcome.
I know lots of people who kept smoking when pg. I didn't care to judge them either. They had cut dramatically and their obstetrician was aware of their smoking. They made their own risk assessment.
I smoked probably less than 10 cigarettes in 9 months, on special occasions. I felt more anxious about my baby's health every time I went for a car journey, tbh. I didn't smoke on my 2 pg, as we were in the UK, special occasions were equal to 0.

"And how many pregnant women have you seen smoking... ever?"

ermm a lot, almost every time I go into town I see at least one pregnant woman smoking

Where on earth do you live?

I have only ever seen 1 (one!) visibly pregnant woman smoking in public. Ever.

I live in a town which sadly has a high rate of teenage pregnancies, infact when I go into town with my DS3 in his pushchair I frequently feel verrrrrrrrrrrry old among the young mums with their prams (I'm only 29).

I have seen one or two older pregnant women smoking, but sadly most of the ones I see are teenagers/younger mums. Which leads me to think it's better education and support for them that's required not condemnation.

I (thankfully) havent got teenagers yet, but I remember being one and if someone had criticised my choices then I'd almost certainly have "rebelled" against them

Cote, surely Stephanie smoked when pg???

Better education, how? Is there anyone on the planet who doesn't know by now that smoking is bad for you and your unborn baby?

I guess your part of town an benefit from a bit of social condemnation

I agree with Neal Stephenson when he says in "The Diamond Age" that 'moral relativism' is the inevitable result of being so Politically Correct that nobody is allowed to judge another - everyone is right, nobody is wrong, there is no right and wrong, to each their own, etc. Hypocrisy is the only moral vice left.

Case in point - We are still discussing something so undeniably wrong as smoking in pregnancy, with some actually saying it's OK, the pregnant mother must have done her own risk assessment

"And how many pregnant women have you seen smoking... ever?"

Quite a lot TBH, I spent most of my last two pregnancies in hospital and as I go to a maternity hospital the smokers outside are generally pregnant women. It makes me cross the amount of pregnant women I have to fight through to get into the hospital. Not for them (although I explained my feelings earlier) but they're in a no smoking area and there are so many you are pushing your way past them.

I guess we move in different circles, then. And yours would benefit from a bit more social condemnation of smoking pregnant women

Actually, I now remember I saw two (not one) pregnant women smoking in my life. One at the outside stairs of a hospital. She was getting dagger eyes from everyone who passed by, and some were elbowing each other and pointing at her. The next day, I opened my eyes at the recovery room after a small operation and this woman was lying next to me. She was coughing her lungs out and crying out every time from the pain (c-section?).

The other was a friend of a friend who went through half a pack when we were out for a girls' karaoke night (back when you could smoke in restaurants in France).