what on earht are you all doing wih tis suiceide stuff

[FluffyMummy123]

Message withdrawn

no-one is criticising suicidal people

and Wilf, exactly what you have said in your posts outlines why no-one on here is in a position to help

as I said, there is a difference between a post where someone wants to talk through their problems and a post where someone says 'I've had enough. I'm doing it' which is a totally different thing and NO-ONE on here is equipped to deal with it.

I was responding specifically to Nagapie and IllegallyBrunette's posts.

Oh, if we have a Samaritan here may I ask you:
What kind of training did you receive?

Would you say that 'ordinary' people are simply not equipped to support someone who is suicidal without such specialist training?

Looking at the recent threads from objectivity and susie
would you say that MN did a good job compared to the 'professionals'?

DaddJ- I would have finished the letter to my DC in tears, wondering if it would be woefully inadequate and then taken the 6 boxes of Efexor I have lined up on the counter.

Because I was still wondering ever so ever so slightly whether I would still feel as awful and like dying at the point when I was actually about to die I may have texted Shiny. Honestly.

I wouldn't have gone to A&E or phoned the Samaritans - would have been waaaaay beyond that point.And,I would have felt that my existence was undeniably unwanted.

Wilf, I agree that posters who involve themselves in a thread have to take resposibility for themselves (although I'm sure no one would have fully thought through the consequences to themsleves should there be a tragic ending to one of these).

What concerns me is the phoning/texting drama that often ensues to mners who may or may not know or live near the OP. I think is completely unfair to involve someone who has not chosen to post on a thread.

oh dittany, I think watching other people go through it as a rational, sane person gives you as much, if not more, insight than someone in the system themselves

and mumsnet is not always supportive. Sometimes it's objective and objective may not be what a suicidal person needs to hear.

you're right, slubbers, I wasn't thinking about the RL MNers but that is a big problem. Yes, the consequences thing is pretty chilling. Everyone assumes a good outcome

The Samaritans also get loads of crank calls, but they still listen sympathetically because they realise the person needs attention. As a Samaritan I spent lots of time talking to cross-dressers wanting to tell me what they were wearing, as well as to the genuinely suicidal. We didn't really differentiate, we just accepted that people needed to hear a sympathetic voice and that if they'd had a good experience with us they would feel comfortable to call again if they were at a very low point in their lives.

Just to feel the concern and support of fellow human beings when you want to end it all should never be underestimated.

I didn't post on the thread yesterday (as I was out) but have no objection to getting home and finding a phone message and MSN messages (not to mention the emails) asking if I had various people's contact details (as others knew that I had off-mn contact with some that may have known the OP).

Surely if MN'ers have RL contact details for other users in most cases this means that they have some form of "offline" friendship - and I would never object to any of my friends (from MN or in RL) involving me in something which I previously wasn't involved in.

If I didn't want to help - then I'd say so.

the thing is dittany, I reckon that, by the time you are suicidal, you are not rational (because suicide isn't a rational outcome even if it feels like it) so therefore coming on here and discussing it with people is incredibly false. It isn't real because you are not having real thoughts. You are in a place where you need proper medical intervention. And no-one on here should be expected to give that and no website should afaik.

And it isn't my experience that makes me feel uncomfortable.

and my point is you can't GUARANTEE supportive

Where is the line drawn though?

When a Woman comes on to say she seriously self harms, is being beaten senseless by her DP, can't stop violence towards her DC or DP. These are all extremely serious potentially life threatening situations. Should these kinds of threads be pulled too? and how would one assess these nuances of emotion in the person/poster.

I appreciate that MNHQ may be taking legal advice on this, and may have to take certain steps having received legal advice. And I think that even, supposing some hypothetical person did top themselves following an online doomwatch, and the bereaved brought a court case, that MN would not be fined or shut down or anything, because there would be enough of a legal defence of having acted in good faith or at least not been deceiving anyone about professional qualifications or anything (ie posters trying to help, it not being their fault if they couldn't) even if someone or other posted something profoundly unsympathetic on such a thread.
But other than that, I don't think it's possible let alone ethical to pull the suicide/despair threads as soon as they start. At what point does someone saying 'I feel lousy, I wish I was dead, give me virtual hugs MNers' tip over into unacceptable? Given that sometimes people posting the above really do mean 'give me virtual hugs MNers' not 'I am lining up the pills@ and it would be a wretched shame to cut off the support that is very helpful when people are feeling, not actually suicidal, but miserable and in need of some online comfort and reassurance.

I think it's possible to pull them straight away...may get a few posts before they get pulled

I also think if mumsnet had a policy of not keeping suicide threads running then people would be less likely to post threads along those lines madamez. So you might get people asking for hugs rather than threatening to top themselves which imo, generates a WHOLE different response, and quite rightly so.

DaddyJ - I'm a bit out of date re. Samaritan training, but it involved a few weekends, that's all. Most Samaritans are lay people, not mental health professionals. The main thing was that you could listen, refrain from giving advice, hear difficult things and not get too upset by them, access help for yourself after a difficult call and, ultimately, accept that unless a caller was evidently mentally ill and needed to be sectioned against their will in a psychiatric hospital, that the decision about whether they wanted to take their life having talked through all the options, was theirs.

ok I have scanned this thread but surely MNHQ can't track down posters or phone the samaritans on their behalf? I mean there is the data protection act if nowt else

everone knows the samaritans are there, people posting on here are choosing to avail themselves of the help here and I can see a lot of good reasons to do that. Different sorts of counselling suits different people and MN is a very non-threatening environment.

I have, incidentally, got experience of working on an adviceline along the same line as the samaritans though prob best not to say which. And I would say that for some people, calling or even emailing an adviceline is not right at that stage, they just aren't ready for it, so without MN they quite possibly wouldn't seek any help

(look this thread is HUGE and so no I haven't read all of it, oooh isn't that annoyin )

Thank you for that post, objectivity.
And can I just say how glad I am that you posted on MN. Really glad.

Janni, do I understand you correctly:
The core skill that a Samaritan brings to bear is to listen patiently and sympathetically?

oh and agree with janni re training for my advice thingy

It was really about seeing if you were already the kind of person who, with a little more help, could take calls well

we actually did pretty much no training on, say, spotting depression. Not our job. Our job was to listen.

Absolutely, DaddyJ

FAQ, the point I am making is that if you are involved in a thread you have made a choice to involve yourself in it.

What we do not know is if 'offline' mners want to be involved in helping someone with depression or who is considering suicide.

I have a fair few offline mn frinds, and the levels of 'committment' if you like to those friends are different. I speak to motherinferior occasionaly but only about bakewear and silicon cake moulds we have a friendship based souly around cake.

If I got an urgent message asking for details or for me to become involved because she was unwell (in whatever capacity) I would be very "whoah there lesley". I don't know her at all (apart from her taste in cupcakes) and as such would be quite uncomfortable in such a situation. If you have been 'named' on a mn thread (even with your nickname) it does somewhat compell you to help.

Sorry if that sounds harsh MI.

Completely agree with Foxinsocks and others.
I feel for anyone that feels they want to die (cant understand it, but I know it cant be a good place to be). But I think if you are seeking help of some sort - which surely coming onto MN and announcing your intention, is - then go to the right people, The Samaritans etc, those who actually can help you.

It is unfair to make a whole load of strangers feel responsible for you decision between life or death.

Fox - I've just tried to type a reply to last post -but can't find the words to say what I mean.

Basically though, as someone who has (recently) used MN for support when feeling suicidal and having genuine thoughts of self harm I couldn't have coped had my threads been pulled straight away.

I would like to see the threads pulled as soon as possible.