what on earht are you all doing wih tis suiceide stuff

[FluffyMummy123]

Message withdrawn

not everyone has elsewhere to go though, thats the problem

if the op of these posts is a troll or emotional vampire thats the op's issues: i'd rather be suickered than leave someone be when they were in that crucial 5 minutes

And the legal stuff.... well MN own this site and their angle is their decision. For me, petrifying and horrid though it'd be, i'd tather try to save a life and take the consequences than not.

And does it matter if its for (rather ineffectual as we're mostly anon) show? or if some watchers / posters get a buzz?

its a life we're talking here!

but I acknowledge that for every me there needs to be a very worldly wise, wary ExPat on the other side... that is how balance is attained.

In France, there's a law relating to "not assisting people who are in danger", ie if you ignore or refuse to help someone in obvious need, you can find yourself in serious legal trouble. I don't know if a similar law exists in the UK but from what I've read on this thread, I would guess it doesn't.

I've just read through this thread and have to say I agree with the train of thought that MN is not the place for counselling suicidal people. Not that I'm unsympathetic but I strongly think it goes beyond the call of duty and an individuals capabilities.

I don't think it can be compared to truly altruistic behaviour like walking down the street and helping an injured individual for example.

People in RL distress need help from RL people and to argue otherwise is ridiculous. I also believe that people who have been in similar situations to those with strong suicidal thoughts are the worse ones able to give support and advice to others and be able to think reflectively about how MN deal with these problems.

I definitely think MN should seek advice on what to do should a post occur and whilst deleting and sending an auto-email is far from ideal I do think it's better than allowing the post to stand and letting whoever is about at the time take emotional responsibility for something beyond the realms of their control.

I read something about a charity initiative a couple of days ago that have launched a 24 hour suicide helpline. Perhaps they may be of help to MN hq about this situation or to those who feel they can no longer post on MN.

I avoid them and most of the mental health ones too. I feel uncomfortable with people using a chat site to get advice adn support they should be seeking in rl.

I thought about this thread through most of last night ( was working a night shift so was awake anyway!) and looking at the posts today- I find myself agreeing with Conniedescending.

I think saying if you dont want to be involved then dont get involved is far too simplistic.

It is a sad fact that people who are struggling with these type of issues themselves are exactly the type of people who are going to get emotionally involved with a post of this type

That has consquences both for the OP and those who are responding to their distress.

Cariboo - not sure whether such a law exists in UK, but I very much doubt it would extend to this kind of platform. You can't be legally compelled to assist someone on an internet forum who clims to be suicidal.
The issue here is that all that can be offered are words and who knows which words are the right ones? It seems that those with a background in mental health are generally saying here that they would simply advise that RL help is sought and be drawn in no further than that.
If you witness someone cut their wrists, the correct course of action is obvious - call an ambulance.
There are no obvious answers in how to correctly advise someone over the internet.
I'll re-iterate my earlier point - Some on this thread have credited posters on MN with the fact that they are still here at all, so what if those particular posters had not been about at the crucial time? What if the 'right' words were not forthcoming? Would it then be the responsibility of those that did post that they FAILED to stop someone dying? That cant be right.

and I would also hazard a guess that any mental health professional/ organisation that are trained and equipped to deal with things like this would say to MN HQ that allowing posters to continue with posting and engaging with someone in this state would be ill advised to say the least.

If it is a case of risk assessment and management then one can only balance the needs of the OP in such cases against the posters who either respond or are merely aware of the thread.

this must surely lead to the following question; Who is at greatest risk.

Whilst posters may risk emotional damage to varying degrees,the OP is at imminent significant risk.

I am perhaps equating this to a paramedic who arrives at a dangerous scene.Protocol would dictate that the scene be made safe before they act. Real life tells us that others may jump in and save the injured even when they are at risk of physical harm, and somebody (firebrigade/bomb squad/etc.) has to go in and make things safe for the paramedics.

There will always be protocol and there will always be those who ignore that as there will always be those who must risk their own safety so that more/better equipped people can help.

Debriefing may be a way forward?

I am sickeningly aware of the burden on others as an OP on such threads myself but I wouldn't turn the paramedics away,or not dial 999- metaphorically speaking. Iam thankful.

But paramedics are trained for the job, objectivity. Most MNers aren't.

I don't get involved with those threads because I worry I would say the wrong thing.

But as Cod said earlier on this thread, I know that a lot happens behind the scenes of MN re support.

I would be interested in hearing from MNHQ re their take on this thread.

If someone is absolutely determined to kill themselves, they will do it. They will not post on an internet site to see what people have to say to them. Those who post that they are feeling 'suicidal' are looking, consciously or not, for help to not go through with it and whilst someone is talking to them on here, they are stepping back from the brink of feeling that there is no way out.

I'm glad you are feeling better, objectivity, but if you are still putting off seeking help IRL I'm afraid the point some MNers were making about why these threads need to be at the very least modified is being demonstrated by your example.

This is a great place for support, BUT, and I say this as someone who has been suicidal beyond the point of posting about online and is currently being treated for ante-natal depression again, it is not a substitute for the help a person who is that depressed needs IRL.

And, sadly, people who do suffer from depression unfortunately do have to play a role in managing their condition, as with any other condition.

Some people are fearful that very depressed folks will use MN as their sole source of help, and put off getting help IRL that they desperately need.

Again, I'm prepared to get flamed for this post and am used to being called harsh and mean.

Not my intention at all but people will construe how they will, this is a serious condition and you would not tell someone who is experiencing any other sort of condition to put off seeking some RL medical help.

Best of luck.

Part of managing depression in many cases - people who are so afflicted they must be hospitalised excepted - is a person who has such condition gaining the confidence and ability to keep seeking help IRL or to make the RL contacts they need to help them get help when they need it.

And yes, this can be a good place to get that and even establish those RL links to get connected with professional help.

But a website shouldn't be a substitute for this.

It's an interesting viewpoint Objectivity. To use your example of people attending an emergency situation, all of the emergency services personel are trained in dealing with such circumstances, have ready debriefing as a matter of course and are also trained in doing a visual risk assessment of the scene before acting so that they do not put themselves at risk to come to the aid of another.

Afterall, you cannot save somebody else if you are hurt in doing so.....then you have 2 injured people.

Now of course there will be people who jump straight into this kind of situation - alot of it on instinct at times I would imagine - but even the most basic first aid course teaches you to assess the scene before helping.

if i was feeling "on the brink" (and i agree with janni that someone determined to kill themselves will probably not be posting on mn) i would rather have maybe 100 people replying to me than a standared email from mnhq? doesn't matter that you're not all trained, you have taken the time to reply and show you care. that would mean so much to me. yes of course mn doesn't take the place of a doctors help, but maybe, just for that moment in time, it would help.

True, daft, but when folks who were considering suicide then admit they are not getting RL help, and 'seeking' it or 'going to get it' are different from 'I rang NHS Direct and got an out of hours appointment with a GP' or 'I rang my GP the next day and got a mental health team appointment', I find it alarming, because these problems need to be dealt with asap as you can be high one minute and back down in the dumps the next.

Iam engaging with Social Services but they keep not calling back or coming out to see me. Amon waiting list for therapy that is more suited.What elsecanIdo.

So,no,it isn't mn stopping me getting help, it is that the help isn't there.

i know expat, it's a very difficult subject. but if i can give someone 5 minutes of my time and that helps...then great.

I would really like to hear the views of mental health professionals on the role of sites like MN in dealing with these issues. Because I assume it is a growing phenomenon.

I agree with Expat though - posters need to be careful not to put the OP at more risk. If someone posts on a DV thread, you don't day 'oh no, I'm sure he won't do it again, leave it if that's what you want'. You say 'Here's the Women's Aid number, ring them, go to your gp, get the hell out of there or at the VERY least make sure you ave an escape route because it will happen again.'

I think there is a danger that people who have been, for example, depressed are giving advice to those with complex medical needs, whether that's substance abuse, or the effects of prescribed medication, or the effects of coming off medication, or other forms of mental illness (psychosis, mania) without knowing anything about the background.

I have only read the first few posts but completely agree that we are not trained to deal and also may need support ourselves to deal with these threads.

"objectivity, have you thought about talking to others who are like-minded but have so far resisted the urge? I know you were offered the chance to talk one on one to my friend who is also suicidal. The thought of the 2 of you talking together and somehow agreeing that ending it is best makes my blood run cold, but I also think talking to people who have been there and know what you are feeling would help you to gain some perspective.

Sorry, all that is an aside to this thread. "

wow that is seriuosly spooky

maybe it is true that all chat websites end up as porn or suicide