Banned for calling out dogwhistling posts

[DebbieHurry]

Yesterday, there was yet another dogwhistlng, vague post on the lines of " Should I send my kids back to school in September? Social media warns of a terrorist attack". This is about the 5th such post in the last 10 days. All by posters spreading panic and fear. I have reported in the past and MN has ignored it. Posts continue to mushroom.

Yesterday, I posted telling people not to get news from Tiktok and pointed out that there have been a spate of such posts.
My posts were deleted, and then my account was banned. My previous username was @KateMiskin.

Could @MN please explain why they allow blatant scaremongering and dogwhistling on a parenting site when the police commissioner has urged people not to spread rumours? And why my account was deleted? I said nothing offensive or that broke the rules. I have been a member for over 20 years.

We can continue the discussion and try to ignore the derailers and goaders?

I wonder if MNHQ will bother commenting further on the thread? They certainly know it has continued since the last MNHQ post, now!

If ever MN needed a block poster option.

Thanks for all your comments.

On the substance of what you say, it’s relatively straightforward to moderate posts that are explicitly racist or abusive, and those are removed quickly. Where it gets more complex is in areas such as immigration, national identity, or political debate. Illegal immigration as we are all acutely aware is a leading political issue in the UK right now and is covered widely in mainstream news. People will naturally want to discuss it here, and we don’t believe that shutting down those discussions outright - whatever your views of Reform or other parties - is a productive approach.

We are alert that conversations on these topics can often cross a line. The concept of a “dog whistle” is relevant here as while some people use the term to describe any coded or indirect way of pushing a hostile view, the line between legitimate political debate and language intended to signal prejudice can be subjective. This is why we don’t make snap decisions and take several factors into account, including the broader context of the discussion and the poster’s standing with us. On misinformation/disinformation - we do remove posts where it’s clear something is being used deliberately to mislead or provoke. But not every mistaken or questionable statement meets that threshold. Sometimes it’s simply someone being ill-informed (as mentioned on this thread there have been several instances of disinformation on other platforms that led to people asking those questions on Mumsnet.) In those cases, challenge from other posters, provided it’s civil, is often the best corrective. We also appreciate that posters can feel stuck on this - challenge in too combative a way, and you think it risks breaking our rules. On this point - we do consider context and we are happy to hear from posters who want to discuss a deletion.

On the frequent suggestion that we leave problematic posts standing “for clicks” - we want to be very clear that this is not true. Whether a post generates traffic or not has no bearing on how the moderation team handles it. Our decisions are based on our guidelines and values, not on site metrics. If we feel a post doesn’t align with Mumsnet’s values, it will be removed, regardless of how much traffic it generates.

We know it can be frustrating when our decisions don’t align perfectly with everyone’s expectations and in truth we can never have an approach that will suit everyone. But our principles are clear - racism is not permitted on Mumsnet, nor is disinformation used to cause harm. At the same time, we will not ban discussion of current political issues simply because they are controversial. Our task is to draw that line fairly, and to keep reviewing how we do so. Your feedback is always welcome, and very much helps to inform our approach so please do continue to share your thoughts as we are reading.

@BeckyAMumsnet That's a very long, very wordy post that basically tells us you plan to change absolutely nothing.

We're asking if you're going to start pulling threads that are obviously disinformation.. like the ones about school attacks, which are clearly 100% rubbish and designed to provoke racist reactions and cause alarm among less aware posters who may stumble across it.

If you won't pull them, is there an option where you can turn off posting with a 'we believe this to be disinformation' post of your own or something?

I've seen post after post talking about Muslims and foreigners as sexual predators and paedophiles. I've seen posts about banning Muslims and deporting them which clearly breach MN talk guidelines. These are all left to stand and are inflammatory.

It's quite possible to discuss immigration, including asylum seekers, without hate filled rhetoric.

I just scroll past them. I'm not obliged to read everyone's post or to answer ones I'm tagged in etc. There have always been posters who generate a "Urgh 🙄" response when I see their name so I stop reading what they say for my own mental health. I can predict what they'll say so I gain nothing from wasting my time on them. I'm sure some people might think the same about me. It's fine.

Anyway, watched Saturday Kitchen on Saturday (obvs!) and Thomasina Miers/Myers made a roast chicken with a Mexican recipe. Had that on Sunday night and it was delicious 😋

@BeckyAMumsnet disinformation is always intended to cause harm. Perhaps not by the poster spreading it, but they are unwittingly doing the work of the people it originated from (in the case of the school terrorist attack disinformation, this definitely comes from far right Twitter, possibly originating from a foreign bot).

Mumsnet allowing these threads to stand is giving this disinformation a far wider platform, and it is presenting it to parents - the intended target. On these threads people are asking for more information on the (fake) rumours.

I don’t think these threads are genuinely started by concerned parents. You appear to be erring on the side of caution and believing that they are. You want the concerned parent to have the disinformation challenged, but the actual outcome is the disinformation reaches a far wider audience. You are then relying on unpaid posters to challenge it to stop the disinformation being believed. But what if we do a bad job? What if the posts challenging the disinformation are deleted for troll hunting or insults?

Your policy on disinformation cannot be ‘only delete if we don’t think the poster is genuine’. Because that is allowing disinformation to stand and spread.

I think your definition of racism may be narrow.

I posted this before I saw Becky's response so I don't make sense now. I was responding to the discussion before and how to deal with the goaders and stalkers on this thread.

I swear this used to be a thing.

Surely if MNHQ are worried about a concerned parent being duped by disinformation they can tell them that it’s disinformation when they delete it.

No, as you said, apparently they'd rather leave it there so Mumsnet can be used as a platform to disseminate harmful false information to more people.

MNHQ step in on threads that are getting out of hand or veering into potentially dangerous territory (to remind posters of talk guidelines, or signpost helpful information outside of the site). Surely it’s possible to have similar stock messages for when posters are unnecessarily bringing race or religion into discussions when it’s not relevant/could be considered dogwhistling, or to provide links to reputable sites that provide factual information on those “misconceptions” that crop up regularly?

Thanks Becky, maybe you need to update your policy because what it doesn’t seem to address is the influx of posters who seem to be posting inflammatory, divisive comments to stir up trouble, flooding threads with off topic content or basically derailing even the most innocuous thread!

Your message doesn’t seem to acknowledge that there are bad actors out there, these threads aren’t a couple of posters having a ‘civil debate’ about a current topic, it’s a barrage of threads (roundabouts?) with the same posters posting the same misinformation over and over again.

You are tackling this Post by Post rather than looking across all the boards and acknowledging that this is changing the whole nature of the forum and turning into one that lots of long standing posters don’t feel comfortable or safe in.

I think @BeckyAMumsnet "Where it gets more complex" for you is discerning the motive and intention of the poster. You appear to still be acting as though all posters are just a bunch of mums with a range of views, some held more robustly than others. You don't appear to act - well not quickly enough, if you do - as though you are being targeted as a site to plant disinformation and misinformation. Letting posts stand around individually deleted ones is pointless - they generate more carefully worded discussion and speculation about what was deleted.

@Kreepture It’s not correct to say we plan to change nothing. We already remove clear disinformation and will continue to do so. What we’ve tried to explain is that not everything reported as disinformation meets that threshold. It’s reasonable for posters to raise something they’ve seen elsewhere for discussion that doesn’t automatically mean they’re trying to spread panic or lies.

What can look to one poster like a calculated attempt to mislead may simply be someone misinformed or clumsy in how they’ve put things. When it’s clear content is harmful or designed to inflame, we remove it, but that judgement rests with us, and we’re basing decisions on more information than any individual poster will have. Of course we won't always get it right - and as we said, we're always happy to discuss anything you might disagree with.

So to be clear, we do act on disinformation and racist provocation and will continue to do so. What we won’t do is remove every thread simply because it’s reported as disinformation. Our role is to distinguish between deliberate attempts to mislead and legitimate (if sometimes poorly expressed) discussion of current issues. We’d ask posters to engage with that reasoning, even if they disagree, rather than assuming inaction from MNHQ.

That would involve knowing what is and isn't disinformation. It seems that MNHQ don't even know the difference between 'illegal immigrants' and asylum seekers, so thats not likely.

And here we have a good example of a shiny new thread doing its best to cement the idea that certain asylum seekers ("men of an ethnic minority" as the OP coyly puts it) are all sexual predators, but clothing it in the garb of reasonable concerns. @BeckyAMumsnet These people have an agenda, it is ugly and MN is allowing it to flourish.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5398822-to-think-that-men-without-documentation-should-be-processed-off-shore?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

On one of these threads, a poster actually confirmed that they were directed to it via another forum.

Maybe we can do with a report thread, or report Poster button.

Times have changed, MNHQ, its time for your guidelines to be examined to decide whether they're now fit for purpose. Your lengthy exposition does nothing to reassure those of us who have expressed concern at what appears to be allowing MN to become simply another social media cesspit catering to far right agitators with a sinister agenda. If that's how MN wishes to progress then be good enough to let us know so that those of us who find it intolerable can leave, with our concerns unaddressed.

Yes I agree, I reported a post which was blatant lies about Gordon Brown, and they refused to remove it, so I emailed Gordon Brown and told the poster what I'd done. She was very quick to ask for her libellous post to be removed.

We should be reporting the racist posts to the police if Mumsnet hq won't deal with them. There is blatant wholly offensive racism on this site and I'm fed up with it.

Excellent Princess will remember that. Good thinking.

"Maybe we can do with a report thread or report poster button"

There is one? If you click/tap on the report button on the post, you can put a note in the report box explaining exactly what you're reporting it for.

The increase in racism isn't just on Mumsnet. It's a national epidemic. Same goes for misogyny, which in my anecdotal experience has become exponentially worse since the mid '10s, and even worse following Covid. People with views it would once have been taboo to state openly are finding, courtesy of SM, enough like-minded people to embolden them to state these attitudes openly.

Whatever we might now think of what passes for left- or right-wing politics these days, the current rhetoric is far too reminiscent of the 1930s for comfort. It's alarming that resentment seems to be simmering everywhere. Trains for one no longer feel safe for women, and the misogynists so fond of proclaiming that 'NAMALT' are suddenly deciding that wait a minute, they do, if those men happen to have brown skin. As for the appalling anti-semitism that's been on the rise since long before 7 October, it seems we've learned nothing.

It's horrible - and I've purposely not engaged with some of the more obviously inflammatory threads. It's not my job to police this site or challenge people who are never going to agree.

Just to say, @DebbieHurry, that I enjoyed your posts as Kate Miskin. In the earlier days of the www, a troll was someone posting incendiary comments to cause a reaction for shits and giggles. MN seems to have redefined 'trolling' as a poster engaging in a creative writing exercise or who isn't genuine, whatever that might mean.

But, and I'm sorry Becky I am going to sound sarcastic here... the schools are under planned attacks by coordinated groups IS a disinformation campaign. It quite simply is.

I reported a very similar post to local FB admins a few weeks back. It disappeared before you could say ' Don't Panic!'.