Why do you allow people to attack and ridicule Christianity?

[Singersong]

Time and time again I see people taking the absolute piss out of Christianity. Calling people delusional and saying it's made up bullshit etc. why do you allow this? I don't see this about any other religion.

It goes far beyond atheism and you claim to be against hate speech.

I don't define myself by being an atheist, but if asked I'll happily explain my stand point.

Men write all sorts of things to control people.

Yes, that's the stance I take. But some people (and countries) do, to the point of militancy and extreme intolerance.

as a Muslim I can categorically tell you that is false. there is a great deal of islamophobia on mumsnet and a lot of aggressive hateful commentary regarding Islam (with zero understanding of the actual religion). all done dressed up as 'free speech' whereas really it's hatespeech.

everyone should be free to believe what they want. posters should be able to discuss all religions while remaining civil and accepting their opinions are not facts.

I do feel that there is perhaps a bit more of an open season on Christianity because there are many who come from a Christian backgrounds but are not atheist and they therefore feel they have the license to be disparaging about Christianity.

you are absolutely entitled to that view. what anyone with your view is not entitled to do is to say to anyone who is religous "you are delusional or you must be stupid to believe x"
also aggressively going upto a religous person (Christian or otherwise) to say "your religion is made up nonsense"

equally no religous person is entitled to go up to an atheist and say "your lack of faith is moronic and you are doomed to burn in hell"

we can believe or not believe but just be civil to each other and try and understand each other's views (without agreeing). but starting the conversation by saying "you lot believe in made up nonsense" won't lead to constructive dialogue.

Absolutely. Well said

She doesn't. She is absolutely correct that nobody on here would ever call a Muslim or a Sikh or a Jew delusional or stupid or any of the other things that are frequently said about Christians

I haven’t seen anyone call Jewish or Sikh beliefs stupid on here but no doubt been done. I have definitely seen Islam criticised.

Look at any of the recent pro-reform party threads. There’s usually a bit in there about brown “invaders” coming with their “backward religion” and sometimes it’s far more explicit than that in other threads, often triggered by someone mentioning for example they or their adult child is in a relationship with a Muslim.

Absolutely outrageous to suggest Muslims have some sort of special status on here. Anyone who says that is either new to MN/ don’t frequently read the threads or are deliberately ignoring the reality. Open your eyes.

Ditto.

Do you think that expressing any negative view of a religion, or stating that there is no evidence of any god, is 'mocking'?

No, not at all. "I don't believe in God because there is no tangible evidence that he exists" if a perfectly valid thing to say. "You are delusional to believe in a non existent being" is not.

I agree. 'You are delusional' is just rude, and is criticising the specific person rather than the religion. How about, for example, 'I think it's utterly baffling that so many people base their way of life and moral compass on the supposed laws and guidance of a deity for whose existence there been not a single shred of evidence for the whole 2000 years or so that the religion has existed'? Less rude. Definitely factual, but with an opinion. Is that mocking?

@Limesodaagain "we can believe or not believe but just be civil to each other and try and understand each other's views (without agreeing). but starting the conversation by saying "you lot believe in made up nonsense" won't lead to constructive dialogue"

What sort of constructive dialogue do you think can happen? I have no interest in trying to stop people believing in whatever they want to believe. I have a lot of interest in stopping them imposing their beliefs on me or on the society I live in. I also have no interest in anyone trying to persuade me to believe in what they believe. Which Christians are inclined to do.

"we can believe or not believe but just be civil to each other and try and understand each other's views (without agreeing). but starting the conversation by saying "you lot believe in made up nonsense" won't lead to constructive dialogue"

What kind of constructive dialogue is really necessary or possible though? If somebody talked to you about their belief in something you felt really absolutely certain was made up, would you really start making efforts to understand their views? What is there to understand? You either believe in it or you don't.

I also have no interest in anyone trying to persuade me to believe in what they believe. Which Christians are inclined to do.

No, not all Christians do.

it's just about understanding what they believe, their perspective. I feel interested in other faiths as I do in other cultures. and you can find things you relate to even if you don't share their faith. eg. talking about how charity is important in society etc. it just allows you to get to know another person better, and feel closer to them.
in terms of dialogue on here, if someone is 100% set on your views with no room for changing them or no curiosity about other's belief then why even be on a discussion forum? because ultimately people with that sort of mindset end up shouting about their beliefs and not being civil about the opinions of others.

anyway, I think civility is always a prerequisite to any dialogue. if anyone has issues understanding that, perhaps they should ask themselves why that is?

You think that is what you are doing, but I doubt you've ever tried to understand from the atheists perspective. But you telling yourself that makes you feel superior.

And as for rudeness, "I'll pray for you" is a very rude thing to say to an atheist, but I've heard it many times.

I don't think religious people really try to understand atheism. What is there to understand? It's an absence of belief in what we regard as a made-up thing. I find religion fascinating in a cultural, psychological, social and anthropological sense. I can totally understand why people might want to believe in gods and be a part of an organised religion, but I still find it hard to get my head around how they manage to actually convince themselves that it's real. I guess quite a lot of them don't - they just go along with it because it's comforting and because they like the community feel.

I think there is a different attitude, it seems to me that anyone can make anti christian comments and make jokes, draw cartoons and be openly hostile to christians and their views calling them loons or whatever. However, once this is applied to other religions - probably with the exception of the jewish faith it is viewed as some form of phobia. Either we protect all religions or none.

I agree with your last post @AllProperTeaIsTheft

Oh I think you'll find that some believers frequently do insist that theirs is the truth, and non-believers & believers of other faiths are heretics (or worse). Perhaps not necessarily on MN, but in the wider world, yes.

@leeverarch "Oh I think you'll find that some believers frequently do insist that theirs is the truth, and non-believers & believers of other faiths are heretics (or worse). Perhaps not necessarily on MN, but in the wider world, yes."

Yes they do. But they don't have a third more choice of state funded schools for example. I don't mind being called a heretic.

I think there is a different attitude, it seems to me that anyone can make anti christian comments and make jokes, draw cartoons and be openly hostile to christians and their views calling them loons or whatever. However, once this is applied to other religions - probably with the exception of the jewish faith it is viewed as some form of phobia. Either we protect all religions or none.

I agree. Non-bigoted people are generally less inclined to criticise the religions which are largely followed by people of ethnic groups different from their own, for obvious reasons. As for protection... imo people should be protected from discrimination based on their religious beliefs,but I don't see why religions or religious belief themselves should be protected from criticism or satire any more than any other opinion (e.g. political affiliation) should. Unless some god finally decides to show him/herself of course, in which case we'd better all start praying (especially those people who had been praying to the wrong one/ones)!

This was a rebuttal of the claim that the "Church of England" is somehow the official State church of the UK. The fact you, as an individual, chose to align yourself with the Anglican church is neither here nor there. There are plenty of Scottish Muslims, that doesn't mean Islam is the State religion of the UK, and it's simply another example of how the UK tolerates freedom of expression.

Well, it’s perfectly valid and rational to say that someone who believes in non existent being is delusional. Because they are. But it’s also a little unkind, as it’s akin to telling a small child that Father Christmas doesn’t exist when they think he does.

However, if a 20something year old person told you that Father Christmas did exist, I think we’d all agree that telling them they were delusional was probably fair enough…

So, whats the difference between believing in Father Christmas and believing in religion? Any religion??

perhaps you are thinking that because that is how you feel?

certainly not how I feel. I enjoy hearing about other people's beliefs, especially when they are different from my own. they help me learn and grow and develop my own beliefs. I have had many enjoyable discussions re faith with atheists.

I don't know many religous people who would say "I will pray for you" to atheists, it is certainly rude.

ps I was not always religous, I came to it through a long process of questioning and scientific reasoning so I absolutely understand the atheist perspective.

My personal view on this matter is that I would not start or provoke a conversation with anyone about religion. I am an atheist, leaning toward anti-theism, but the fact I am an atheist means I have no particular interest in religion and have no inclination to prompt a conversation about it with other individuals.

For that reason, I am perfectly comfortable with the idea of "respect", and not "foisting" my atheism on other people, regardless of whether or not they share my views, and also regardless of which particular religion they might align themselves with. I do, however, reject the idea that if I'm asked, or someone prompts me to engage on the topic, that I somehow have to moderate or water down my response for fear of offending.

The same rights that mean you are free to worship anything you choose also grant freedom of expression, and that means the right to criticise, and even offend, provided you stay within the bounds of legality. As I said, I am content to show "respect" by simply never bringing the matter up, but this only works on a reciprocal basis, and if religious people actively seek to bring the matter up, I will oblige and engage. I also believe that as Christianity is a pervasive, insidious presence in UK public service and politics, I am perfectly entitled to express my view on that matter, since it does directly effect me, and I'm subject to the whims of institutions and people trying to foist their belief system upon me irrespective of the fact I do not share their beliefs, and quite possibly do not share their "values" either.

On the point about Christianity being "singled out" and Christians feeling "bullied". I can understand that perception, but then I think that is just a natural consequence of Christianity being the overwhelmingly predominant religion in the UK, so it follows that as a matter of course most of the discourse revolves around Christianity, so you are going to end up with more upset Christians than any other religion!. They are certainly not persecuted in the UK, so I have a hard time feeling any sympathy when they claim victimhood. The allegation that nobody would dare respond to Muslims, Jews, etc in the same way is a nonsense. I hold all organised religion in contempt, but again, I'm happy to keep those views to myself unless prompted. Who, precisely, prompts the response is neither here nor there, and I would not dilute my response or be shy in speaking honestly depending on the particular beliefs of who I am responding to.

I'm puzzled as to why people who claim faith would be offended by playground insults like "sky fairy" and "delusional" in any case. You, by definition, believe in something that is entirely without provenance and can not be proved or disproved other than philosophically, and even then only after you have defined what it is that you actually believe. Surely, if your "faith" is strong enough to actually believe, then mere criticism is nothing more than water off a duck's back. This is why I always say to overbearing religious people "if you want to stop being ridiculed, then stop being ridiculous". Engage in good faith, and stop expecting those of us who don't believe to "respect" something we regard as palpably ridiculous. If you ask, then don't take the huff when you get an honest response.

Russell's Teapot. Nobody would have the slightest concern in "offending" anyone who espoused this nonsense, so why should other, equally implausible belief systems expect a special stats that grants them freedom from criticism, mockery, or ridicule?

Mockery and satire has always played a fundamental role in exposing the ridiculousness, pomposity, hypocrisy, and illogical nature of organised religion. It's a big part of the reason why fewer and fewer people oblige it with the special status it constantly demands. I utterly reject any idea that it, or people who follow it, should be given special protection from other people simply expressing a view they are perfectly entitled to both hold and voice.

Fair enough. I agree with your first paragraph completely. I tend to avoid discussing religion with people who I don’t know very well or who I think would not be interested in the discussion.
I agree with you about mockery and satire playing an important role in puncturing pomposity etc . However cliched, childish insults don’t have much to offer.
Just to clarify- I can cope with playground mocking expressions towards religion ( sky fairy etc) but when I hear that type of language it reduces any chance of a meaningful conversation. I’m not really interested in an exchange of insults.
I accept that my beliefs might seem ridiculous to many people but civilised people should be able to refrain from mocking others publicly ( unless they’re responding to an offensive comment)