UK and Mumsnet targeted by disinformation - question

[DucklingSwimmingInstructress]

Hello Mumsnet

It's been stated by many entities that the UK (US, Europe generally as well) is being targeted by Russia and perhaps China as well, plus the wave of disinformation about Gaza.

On the support-Ukraine threads we've seen this frequently.

The big danger is that Russia / China / Gaza-involved are influencing people in favour of the policies they support.

The smaller, but not insignificant, danger is that because there's so many lies around that even posters posting in good faith get suspected when they (quite reasonably) question statements or opinions. When someone who is genuine writes a comment that unfortunately is very similar to Russian bad-faith actors' words either because they truly think that way or because they've been influenced by lies, it's a difficult situation.

I know bad-faith actors (whether Russian, Chinese, Gaza-involved) are clever by hiding behind VPNs.

But it would be good if Mumsnet could say what they are doing to counteract this malign people and countries, and the general policy please?

Would this not tell the nogooniks what was being done against them and thus make it easier for them to circumvent the measures being taken, though?

MNHQ (quite rightly) does not reveal its methods for dealing with trolls, spammers, deliberate misinformation, or any type of miscreant.

All we can do is to use the 'report' button.

I'd like to know the policy :)

I wonder if there is a govt project that keeps larger social media organisations informed of the state of disinformation?

That would be altogether too useful to happen!

I would as well.

I’d like to know the policy as well. For instance, many posters churning this kind of misinformation out are relatively new, surely there are some checks which could easily be done to test new posters and their content?

😂

It feels a little bit that mnet have lost control, the bad faith actors are incredibly shallow, repetitive and always with the same undertone of admiration for Putin and Russia, contempt and despair at the West.

They also seem terrified of a Labour government and are intent on blaming them for every bad decision ever, have plenty of copy and paste articles at their fingertips but are incapable of any depth of thought to back it up. Its like being shouted at constantly by someone who isn't listening and can't be reasoned with.

You report them but nothing happens. I'm also aware that I'm becoming far too suspicious of possibly genuine people, and worried that I'm potentially alienating real people but I don't want to let insidious posts go unchallenged. It would be great to have confidence that mnet has policies and plans in place to prevent bad actors from spreading lies and disinformation.

TSSDNCOP.

And neither will MN.

It’d be good to have some reassurance that mn is live to the problem though and being proactive, yes?

The policy should at least be public.

The UK is under active attack and it'd be good to know that Mumsnet are alert to that and have some sort of policy about it.

@Mumsnet? Do you have anything?

This is really important. I'm also seeing increasing amounts of disinformation on Mumsnet that is dangerous and could influence people's vote. It looks intentional and coordinated. The source - who knows? - foreign interference, domestic? In any case, we need to know MumsnetHQ is (1) aware and acknowledges the problem, (2) actively responding, (3) how it is responding.

Many digital platforms now have policies and community standards to address misinformation and disinformation policies. Eg Meta's policy is here. Measures include labelling, fact-checking, community notes, banning users for inauthentic behaviour.

Mumsnet, what is your policy, and can you share it with us? What measures are you or will you use to counter the disinformation and interference?

I hope you can be proactive on this before journalists start looking into the juicy story of how Mumsnet is being manipulated to influence for example how people vote in the election. And thanks @DucklingSwimmingInstructress for starting this thread.

Morning, everyone,

We are, of course, aware of these issues. As several people have pointed out, to reveal exactly how we are dealing with it would be to give those people instructions as to how to work their way around it, so we're afraid we can't give out information like that.

Obviously, in terms of these sorts of characters appearing on the boards or starting threads, they are usually reported fairly swiftly and it's mostly quite easy for us to see from our end whether they are genuine or not.

We don't think we can assume that everything that is factually incorrect is 'deliberate disinformation' rather than a different view or someone simply 'being wrong' so we don't have a blanket delete policy on many things. As a discussion site, where possible, we prefer for views to be challenged, alternative evidence offered etc. But when it is clear someone has pitched up here with an agenda (whatever that may be) and is posting simply in order to cause trouble, we would regard that as trolling and ban them.

Other factors might come into play, too where it's not immediately obvious that someone is a bad actor. We're less likely to give someone the benefit of the doubt if they're posting from a new account (and in an odd way), whereas if someone has been a member for years and never been in any trouble previously, we'd take that into consideration. So we take each case on its merits (or demerits) really.

Sorry we can't give much more detailed info than that. As always, if you have concerns, please do report. We never mind looking into someone, even if it turns out you were completely wrong, and, as we say, it's usually pretty clear when there's something amiss behind the scenes here, so we can often sort that pretty speedily.

Thanks for replying, and glad you are active on this.
One question - you didn't say whether or not you have a Mumsnet policy on detecting and responding to misinformation and disinformation?
I know you can't share one, but would be good to know you have a formal process and it's part of your systems and policy framework (as it is for many businesses now, especially large online platforms)

Yes, that's the core of what I'd like to know too.

I'd like to raise this again.

The UK, including Mumsnet (actually stated by some press!) is being targeted by Kremlin disinformation.

At Mumsnet Towers you're pretty good at getting rid of the trolls. But there are some posters, long term registered ones, who are actively posting the inaccurate and deceptive lines from the Kremlin. These are direct lies, many of them, from established posters who are simply not interested in more accurate information. Nothing you show or say to them from established sources makes any difference; you point out the sheer broken promises of the Kremlin and the level of devastation in Ukraine and they -still- push the Kremlin line.

This is a situation where Mumsnet is allowing Kremlin propaganda free reign, from people who have been registered a while.

There are some people who genuinely think differently. Fair enough. But some are producing the Kremlin lines, and they are consistent with the troll-farm lines, and when faced with evidence that their points are false, they ignore it.

This is clearly a prior agenda intended to drip feed Kremlin poison and I'm very concerned that long-registered or not, Mumsnet is allowing itself to be used.

I can provide plenty of evidence that the Kremlin is attacking the UK and West generally if you need it, no less than from the Parliament of Europe, NATO and the UK govt, but you know this is the situation already.

Please could you take stock of the situation and consider changing your rules so that people who seem to be doing the Kremlin's work through Mumsnet could be invited to post in other locations?

I agree with @DucklingSwimmingInstructress. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it has become a duck. You'll never prove intention.

It is a given that the Kremlin will ramp up their misinformation campaign ahead of the UK general election. It even has Nigel Farage jumping in on the act and being quoted in the news. The Ukraine threads have seen a surge in trolls from newbies and occasionally long registered posters in the last few days.

It is hard to believe that it is pure coincidence. I appreciate mn takes time to look behind the scenes. But dragging it out is precisely the Kremlin's tactic for the Ukraine war as well as leaving pro-Kremlin views to stand until the election is over.

It would be disappointing for mn to allow itself to be an inadvertent mouthpiece of the Kremlin just simply in being slow to delete these odious and faux disingenuous posters.

I thank your team for your hard work in policing the Ukraine thread.

Agreed. This has been occurring for years, though - at least since before the US 2006 elections. It peaked during Covid and became high again during Ukraine and after the Gaza attacks. The coming US election (and the British and French ones) are causing the instability.

Just to gently point out, it's the Russians causing the instability. But yes, they are redoubling their efforts.

Yes - I meant they are redoubling their efforts because of geopolitical events such as elections.

Hi again @DucklingSwimmingInstructress . If someone were found not to be genuine or to be trolling or spreading disinformation in order to do damage on any subject, we would ban them rather than ask them to post elsewhere.

As we've said though, we also have to allow people to have different opinions and it can be a fine line. The best thing to do if there are any particular posts or posters that you think we need to take a look at, is to report them to us using the report button and we can have a look behind the scenes and make sure they're above board. It is usually reasonably easy at our end to see whether someone is a long-term poster whose opinions on some subjects simply go against the grain or whether they are here only to cause trouble.