MN needs a closer watch of FWR

[BodegaSushi]

There is a concerning growth of posts with racist undertones cropping up on these boards, all under the guise of being proudly 'anti-woke'.

Apparently diversity is 'woke' and worthy of derision.

This is the thread I'm referring to here.

Disney went woke now they're going broke www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4836570-disney-went-woke-now-theyre-going-broke

Mumsnet needs to looks at why that board draws such types of posts, and why posters feel so comfortable openly airing their racism.

Well you know trans people will all have very differing opinions on these points as well, don't you?

There is a huge amount of variation in thoughts and attitudes on various aspects within the community.

But what trans people face, on a day-to-day basis, just for being who they are, is a level of hostility that goes far beyond what non-trans people experience, and this is becoming normalised and accepted because of the style of the discourse that is occurring, which is emboldening hostility and prejudicial attitudes towards trans people.

They get up in the morning and know they will face people crossing the road so they don't have to pass them, sniggers at bus stops and cafes, lack of eye contact from others, difficult and stilted conversations because the other person is so focused on why they are transgressing the gender norms they expect to see from them

They face exclusion at work and in education, not in an authorised sense, but in the sense that people feel uncomfortable around them and so they might spend a lot of time alone. They are alienated from families and loved ones who don't understand their experiences. Their support networks are diminished in a time when they are most needed.

They experience panic when they need to go to the toilet because they don't know which to use that will result in least hostility from others that might be present.

They have constant comments directed to them about their choices and their bodies, they turn on the radio and listen to something questioning who they are and the threat the pose to others, they turn on the TV and they hear the same thing, red the papers and see the same thing.

This is a day-to-day constant experience for trans people, that non trans people do not have to face and have little appreciation of, when they are just trying to go about living their lives.

How would you feel if you lived with these experiences every day? It would take a toll, wouldn't it?

No. I used google / images to find the screen shot of the original. And while I was there I remembered that extreme activist had posted their screenshot and went on twitter and found it. Carabello was deep into the issue with the Libsoftiktok. I don't follow or read Libsoftiktok, I have little idea outside of this issue. But I do remember this issue because the accusations seemed so bizarre.

They have constant comments directed to them about their choices and their bodies, they turn on the radio and listen to something questioning who they are and the threat the pose to others, they turn on the TV and they hear the same thing, red the papers and see the same thing.

People are always going to "question who they are". They are claiming to be something that many people see as impossible. That's just reality. People need to not give them unreasonable expectations, because not everyone shares the belief that some people should be considered members of the opposite sex to the one they are.

How would you feel if you lived with these experiences every day? It would take a toll, wouldn't it?
Many, many people do already @suggestionsplease1. You are also describing the everyday experiences of women for decades. Hostility, exclusion, sniggering, comments about their choices? Although admittedly panic about going to the toilet in case someone (male) is in there that may cause you problems is a more recent one.

The regular posters of FWR are sympathetic to the everyday struggles of individual transwomen and transmen. However, as a class, their needs do not outweigh those of the class of women. A discussion needs to take place to address those situations where an apparent clash of needs arise. However, its difficult to have that discussion when one party has declared "no debate".

All those things Suggestionsplease states may well be the experience of trans people, and they are of course not positive experiences.

However I would maintain that isn't the 'fault' of FWR.

If the TRAs hadn't 'overstepped' into trying to get TW into women's single sex spaces then women wouldn't have mobilised.
If the likes of Veronica Ivy and Lia Thomas hadn't pushed in and succeeded in being allowed in women's sport then all the sports lovers wouldn't have cared.
If Mermaids & Stonewall hadn't pushed gender ideology into schools, including untested medical treatment onto children then parents wouldn't have noticed / cared.
If Scotland hadn't tried to place rapists in womens prisons the general public wouldn't take so much notice.

I don't care one way or another about a trans person going about their lives peacefully.

It is the total overreachof the gender ideologists and the TRAs who have made whole chunks of the general public more aware and on guard.

In a day-to-day sense trans women and men are not going around with statements on their foreheads declaring their identities, they are just getting on with their day-to-day lives.

If people are questioning them or treating them differently on the basis that their appearance is at odds with what they expect, well that of course is what happened with women who transgressed the appearances expected for their sex in the past. And of course it's the experience of many of my butch lesbian friends who are experiencing increased intolerance at the moment for transgressing societal norms, we are guessing because of the hostility directed towards trans people currently.

If people are questioning them or treating them differently on the basis that their appearance is at odds with what they expect, well that of course is what happened with women who transgressed the appearances expected for their sex in the past.

No. It's not the same, because we're not talking about women, we're talking about male people. You're going to need to accept that there are many people who simply see MTF trans people as men.

Some of my butch lesbian friends are 'read' as men, is it ok for them too?

It is the total overreach of the gender ideologists and the TRAs who have made whole chunks of the general public more aware and on guard.

Indeed. As someone said elsewhere on MN, “if you overreach you are going to topple”.

Some of my butch lesbian friends are 'read' as men, is it ok for them too?

What is it about my posts that you're finding so difficult to follow?

Some women may look like men at a quick glance so therefore I have to accept the claims of males to be women?

seems like that is the case Eresh.

That is how this logically plays out.

I guess I'm wondering where is (or if there is) a line drawn at hostilities. You should know that the biological sex of a person is not always clear, and there are a lot of non trans people that have been subject to abuse because they have been read as trans.

Like I said, in a lot of day to day interactions there is no declaration of identities whatsoever, so there are no claims 'of males to be women' as you put it - just the subjective judgment of the observer as to how the other person is fitting the social norms that they expect to see of them.

"Social norms " used to be the guiding principle. Decent men didn't try and invade women's spaces so bad actors were easier to spot. Under self-ID principles where there need be no attempt to appear to be biologically female and women's spaces are thus effectively mixed sex, that's more difficult.

just the subjective judgment of the observer as to how the other person is fitting the social norms that they expect to see of them.

The sad thing is it is the gender idealogues who re-enforce social norms not the feminists. The feminists say let people wear what they want, do what jobs they want, but respect there are differences between the biological sexes which means at times sex separation is needed. It is the genderists who say 'like barbie? you must be a girl' or 'want short hair? that's a boy thing'. Remember that picture with barbie on the left morphing into Action man on the right?

I'm a short haired, trouser wearing, mathematician who worked in IT. Still a woman.

How about letting women use their words on a feminist forum and letting trans people use their words on their forums?

The fact that a whole gang of males constantly monitor the women who post on FWR reporting them and getting them banned if they say too many wrong words is never reciprocated is it?

It is only ever one sided and always to the benefit of males.

If you're talking about the use of bathrooms, changing rooms etc there's a good study illustrating that introduction of self ID policies does not increase criminal activity.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

Suggestions** absolutely it would take its toll of course. Assuming you're also a woman we can empathise with much of this as we've experienced similar from having female bodies since a young age. My DD 14 and her friends are also starting to notice it ain't all daisies being a girl too. Note there haven't been any beardy bros jumping to my defence over the years or demanding their fellow men stop acting like sexist pervy Twats.

Because of that I'll always treat any person as I find them and extend them courtesy and respect regardless of how they present.

But now I'm seeing the need for constant validation and complete acceptance and no challenge of demands from (mainly TW) trans people and their supporters (funny how so many biological men have never been quite so outspoken publicly to call out misogyny towards real women and girls) is harming people and eroding safeguarding. And this community are ok with the collateral damage.

So yea. Maybe if they consider actually debating and listening to our concerns and recognise the harm that's being caused and we can meet half way. Until then I'm not budging.

It didn't have to get to this.

I'm not sure social norms was the right choice of words here. At least I think I was talking about socially acceptable stereotypes.

10 years ago if a vaguely make looking person was in the womens toilets I'd probably have assumed they were a butch lesbian unless anything happened to make me think twice (for example if the person was aggressive or spoke in a male voice).

These days you can no longer assume a vaguely male looking person in the womens toilets isn't actually a male person, so you have to be more on guard. The TRAs have broken 'social norms' by encroaching on women's spaces, and made it harder for all women however we present.

Don't tell me, the 4 girls recently sexually assaulted in school toilets in Essex imagined it.

How many girls will it take for you to see this does not benefit females?

Always n = n + 1

Well I don't know, there seem to be a lot GC feminists unhappy with 'biological males' wearing stereotypically feminine clothing.

Most people in the LGBTQ community aren't really interested in enforcing social norms for others, just in doing what feels right for them personally.

And they've repeatedly explained to you why.

But you apparently still aren't able to take on board any of their explanations and just keep repeating the implication that this is mere random prejudice.

Self ID policies allowing people identifiying as female to enter toilets labelled as for women is not the same as gender neutral toilets just FYI.

Perhaps the insistence of gender neutral toilets because of complete refusal to accept trans women in public toilets is contributing to the increased level of assault seen in gender neutral spaces.

I'd be interested to see any actual studies on this, as if science is showing that self ID does not increase crime but evidently gender neutralising spaces does, that should be taken into account.

Well, yes it is prejudice that my butch lesbians friends are facing on the basis of their appearance.

No they tend not to be GC if they object men wearing stereotypical woman's clothes

They could still be feminist I suppose

That's what the GC stands for - someone who rejects ( critical of ) gender norms

You do see GC feminists objecting to people who wear such clothes and claim it shows their are women