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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Quite a few aggressive vaccine denying threads lately...

327 replies

mathanxiety · 05/04/2023 03:16

Is there some sort of concerted campaign afoot? I've noticed a few threads recently, all along the same lines. Very dog whistley...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
DanceMonster · 10/04/2023 19:10

mathanxiety · 10/04/2023 19:06

If you're asserting that anxiety around vaccines is not inspired by some guff that originated on QAnon or similar, then I disagree.

All of the hesitancy over vaccines is the result of overt and covert opinion manipulation. All of the receptivity comes from dishonest thinking and, frankly, sheer ignorance of statistics and of how vaccines are developed, tested, and authorised for use.

It's a heady mixture, where scientific ignorance builds on whispers of attractively simple answers to complicated questions all over the internet and, sadly, all over politics, because some politicians are utter charlatans. You seriously underestimate the attractiveness of simple answers for a great number of people.

All this nervousness all over the internet has its origin in the multiple internet and political voices whose aim is the discrediting of all sources of authority, including medical and scientific, but also political and legal, that constitute the foundations of society.

Again, there is no obligation on the part of MN or any other site to host any of this.

If this is the case, then surely it’s preferable to allow the people who have been influenced by the manipulation to air their views so that people can counteract them with the facts? People who are silenced don’t change their opinions; instead they’re more likely to assume they’re being silenced for nefarious reasons. If people are hesitant, the best thing to do is reassure them. Provide the statistics that refute those views.

Notegoat · 10/04/2023 19:36

I think a lack of trust in government, businesses, news media and anything ‘official’ has spread like a disease through social media.

A relatively small number of people generate the vast majority of anti vax content. Algorithms used by social media mean that when someone clicks on a link or a friend of theirs ‘likes’ something they’re directed towards a stream of similar content. It’s why you can lose an hour on YouTube watching cats on a roomba. If you use Twitter it means that your feed will be cluttered with anti vax tweets. You can end up in an echo chamber where all the information that pops up on your phone reinforces the idea that vaccines are dangerous or some kind of conspiracy. The sources people cite to support these views are either valid studies that have been misinterpreted (deliberately or otherwise) or link back to anti vax organisations or individuals.

I don’t think that you can break through this thinking easily by citing other sources of information because mistrust of ‘mainstream’ media and medicine is a cornerstone of the belief. Meeting people, especially doctors and nurses, and talking to them in real life, not through screens, is more effective. Instead of seeing them as ‘sheep’ or as part of some big pharma conspiracy, see them as ordinary people with families who have weighed up the medical evidence and chosen vaccination for themselves and their children.

Coyoacan · 10/04/2023 20:30

It's actually very hard to get the statistics on vaccines. Unfortunately during the covid pandemic, nobody took advantage of the people who didn't want to vaccinate to set up control groups to compare with 3rest of us who did get the vaccine.

ATerrorofLeftovers · 10/04/2023 21:16

mathanxiety · 10/04/2023 19:06

If you're asserting that anxiety around vaccines is not inspired by some guff that originated on QAnon or similar, then I disagree.

All of the hesitancy over vaccines is the result of overt and covert opinion manipulation. All of the receptivity comes from dishonest thinking and, frankly, sheer ignorance of statistics and of how vaccines are developed, tested, and authorised for use.

It's a heady mixture, where scientific ignorance builds on whispers of attractively simple answers to complicated questions all over the internet and, sadly, all over politics, because some politicians are utter charlatans. You seriously underestimate the attractiveness of simple answers for a great number of people.

All this nervousness all over the internet has its origin in the multiple internet and political voices whose aim is the discrediting of all sources of authority, including medical and scientific, but also political and legal, that constitute the foundations of society.

Again, there is no obligation on the part of MN or any other site to host any of this.

For sure, QAnon and other mischief-makers will have played in role in adding to some peoples' fears. But this is only part of it.

Many people already had beliefs that would lead them to eschew vaccines, eg those who prefer herbal medicine, acupuncture, homeopathy, etc. Who have a distrust of pharmaceuticals in general, maybe vaccines in particular, especially ones without a long track record of being demonstrably safe. This can be cultural in origin, and has been the case for a very long time, way before Covid or QAnon, or Russian bots etc - eg the preference in China for Chinese medicine, the popularity of homeopathy in Germany, etc.

For others, who are prone to health anxiety, it can feel very scary to have a medical intervention, and this again predates Covid, QAnon etc. But it was heightened with Covid due to the timescales.

It's one thing to hear about a vaccine scare (eg whooping cough vaccine in the 70s, MMR in the 90s etc), be anxious about it, and then see, over time, lots of people you know having it and being ok. This builds up an implicit trust in the vaccine. Quite another to have an illness come out of the blue and there be a vaccine less than a year later, you're being told is safe, but you haven't had chance to witness that yourself and you're wondering how that can possibly be. Eg, you're pregnant, you're told the vaccine's safe for your baby, but you're wondering how we know that for sure, when nobody's had a chance to track the development of children over their childhood and prove it doesn't affect, e.g. brain development, down the line.

Then there's the fact that we know vaccines are safe and life-saving for the vast majority of the population. But we also know that, for a very, very small minority, they cause serious illness or death. Yet we don't know which people that will be. Nobody has researched this to see if, eg. certain genes, or certain pre-existing health conditions would put you at higher risk of complications. You just have to hope you're in the 99.999% of the population who'll be fine and you'll benefit. For most of us, we're happy to take those odds. But if you're prone to anxiety and overthinking/obsessions, it can be seen as basically a form of roulette - with the odds of you getting a poor outcome looming larger than they are in reality.

For some people with anxiety, any risk of something bad happening is intolerable. Of course, this can also work the other way - anxiety disorders soared during Covid, with some going to extreme lengths to avoid it and developing agoraphobia, OCD, health anxiety etc for the first time. These anxious people were desperate for the vaccines. They also had a very skewed view of the risks they faced, but their tendency was more in line with official health policy, so nobody cares.

I work with people with anxiety, and have seen all of the above during the pandemic and since.

Has QAnon etc played into this? Yes, most likely, for some at least, though from the people I work with, I would say those sites have been way less popular than you seem to think, in terms of people going down the rabbit hole.

If it were the case that we could ban mischief makers, eg Russian bots, from their drip, drip campaigns on Twitter, here, etc, while not affecting the civil liberties of ordinary people, perhaps I'd agree with your stance. I'd certainly have preferred it if Russia hadn't been able to interfere with the Brexit vote, too! But I can't see how we can do that - not without huge amount of resource being deployed by the security services. It's outside the scope of MN for sure.

And I think we need to treat people like adults. We can counter the misinformation. But we have to allow people to speak. We also can't expect MN to act as though it's a public information services. It's a private organisation, not an arm of the state. It's a balancing act, but censorship never leads anywhere good, in the end.

loulouljh · 10/04/2023 21:19

Vaccine denying? Or concern about a certain so called recent vaccine that has caused alot of injuries?

ATerrorofLeftovers · 10/04/2023 21:22

Notegoat · 10/04/2023 19:36

I think a lack of trust in government, businesses, news media and anything ‘official’ has spread like a disease through social media.

A relatively small number of people generate the vast majority of anti vax content. Algorithms used by social media mean that when someone clicks on a link or a friend of theirs ‘likes’ something they’re directed towards a stream of similar content. It’s why you can lose an hour on YouTube watching cats on a roomba. If you use Twitter it means that your feed will be cluttered with anti vax tweets. You can end up in an echo chamber where all the information that pops up on your phone reinforces the idea that vaccines are dangerous or some kind of conspiracy. The sources people cite to support these views are either valid studies that have been misinterpreted (deliberately or otherwise) or link back to anti vax organisations or individuals.

I don’t think that you can break through this thinking easily by citing other sources of information because mistrust of ‘mainstream’ media and medicine is a cornerstone of the belief. Meeting people, especially doctors and nurses, and talking to them in real life, not through screens, is more effective. Instead of seeing them as ‘sheep’ or as part of some big pharma conspiracy, see them as ordinary people with families who have weighed up the medical evidence and chosen vaccination for themselves and their children.

I agree that the tendency of social media sites to show users only a very small set of topics is a huge problem here. It leads to the bubbles, where people see their views confirmed over and over, they get more and more entrenched and convinced they're right, and more and more deaf and blind to any information to the contrary.

I follow about 2,000 people on Instagram, yet only see posts from about a tenth of that. The same ones over and over. When I've scrolled through them, instead of then showing me the posts of the other people I follow, it just repeats the ones I've seen! Unless I deliberately go to the profile page of someone I follow, I can go months without ever seeing their posts, even though I've chosen to follow them, and therefore confirmed I want to see their posts!

I never asked to be put in a bubble!

This would be far more fruitful to tackle, rather than censoring Joe Public.

ATerrorofLeftovers · 10/04/2023 21:25

DanceMonster · 10/04/2023 19:10

If this is the case, then surely it’s preferable to allow the people who have been influenced by the manipulation to air their views so that people can counteract them with the facts? People who are silenced don’t change their opinions; instead they’re more likely to assume they’re being silenced for nefarious reasons. If people are hesitant, the best thing to do is reassure them. Provide the statistics that refute those views.

Completely agree with this. Silencing people just convinces them they're right to be concerned. It convinces them there IS a conspiracy. Then they go and spread their views amongst their friends.

If a fear is bollocks, we can counter it with fact, can't we.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 10/04/2023 21:38

Useruser1 · 10/04/2023 15:58

How do you still support it, how many people are in your situation?

Because l want to keep having vaccinations. I’m gutted that l can’t have any. Why would l change my life long beliefs?

l am severely disabled but still support public health measures.

Useruser1 · 12/04/2023 10:29

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 10/04/2023 21:38

Because l want to keep having vaccinations. I’m gutted that l can’t have any. Why would l change my life long beliefs?

l am severely disabled but still support public health measures.

I'm going to frame this as an example of peak 2023 thinking!
Thanks

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/04/2023 10:34

Useruser1 · 12/04/2023 10:29

I'm going to frame this as an example of peak 2023 thinking!
Thanks

Glad you can use my post for your own gain🤨

Crikeyalmighty · 12/04/2023 10:36

Well I'm the opposite- developed neurological long covid which went nuts after 4th vaccine - I certainly am saying I'm not having any more as clearly my body couldn't cope with so many

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/04/2023 10:40

@Crikeyalmighty has that been diagnosed? That’s what I’ve got.

I can’t walk. How’s it affected you? What’s the prognosis?

adriftabroad · 12/04/2023 10:50

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/04/2023 10:40

@Crikeyalmighty has that been diagnosed? That’s what I’ve got.

I can’t walk. How’s it affected you? What’s the prognosis?

Really, really interested to hear this too. Do either of you have pains in your hands and feet? (peripheral neuropathy)?

adriftabroad · 12/04/2023 10:53

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow can you actually not walk at all?😧 I struggle alot, but can walk (unsteadily).

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/04/2023 10:54

@adriftabroad , l don’t but it’s a common symptom of vaccine injury according to the vax injured groups I’m in.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/04/2023 10:55

No, I’m too weak to walk. Breathing’s very weak too. Brain fog, headaches, photophobia, I’ve got the lot.

adriftabroad · 12/04/2023 11:23

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow you poor thing. That is terrible. Will it get better? I seem to be getting better really, really slowly. Really slowly. Like a year at a time,not a week at a time.

adriftabroad · 12/04/2023 11:23

So tired...

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/04/2023 11:46

I hope so😭no one knows. It happened after a previous booster but no one knew what it was. It was much much milder and went in about 7 months. This one was way more aggressive though.

adriftabroad · 12/04/2023 11:53

So it "built up"? Horrifying. I am so sorry.🌷

I will not have another vaccine.(covid NOT a different vaccine)

I truly wish you the very best. I hope you can manage to do some sitting exercises to try and combat the muscle loss? xxx

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/04/2023 11:56

I daren’t have another vaccine. The first time it went away. Waiting to see a rheumatologist and a neurologist. But nhs waiting lists…..

Crikeyalmighty · 12/04/2023 12:47

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow @adriftabroad

I've got the neurological kind of it- so walking, breathing etc all ok- but peripheral neuro damage, burning on forehead and nose) but not red at all) chronic daily migraines , pins and needles in feet most evenings and occasionall fingers, internal tremors (random) and my legs have lost strength. Bloods ok apart from cholesterol (now on statins) and on very low dose beta blockers too as blood pressure was raised .

I can work and I still function ok but feel lousy most of the time. I had a double whammy had my 4th vaccine and had covid 2 days later, so I think I was vaccinated whilst covid in my system

Crikeyalmighty · 12/04/2023 12:51

If anyone who thinks it doesn't exist would like to join the long covid FB support group, the numbers are huge and lots of previously very fit people of all ages too- most vaccinated, some not- it's totally random who has been damaged by covid and/or vaccine. It's really not just a bunch of malingerers and many are suicidal.

adriftabroad · 12/04/2023 12:59

It has impacted mylife in almost every way.

I am sorry @Crikeyalmighty it has you too.

I was so fit. I feel like an old woman now, I really do.