Quite a few aggressive vaccine denying threads lately...

[mathanxiety]

Is there some sort of concerted campaign afoot? I've noticed a few threads recently, all along the same lines. Very dog whistley...

It was the OP who wanted rules changing, not those who think people should be allowed to air their opinions, even if many of us don’t agree with them.

@DanceMonster yes, but I don't mean opinions, I mean lies/misinformation/etc. That's against MN talk guidelines but lots of other places wouldn't mind them. Sometimes some people get 'the right to an opinion' and 'the right to spread lies' mixed up, about all sorts of topics but when it's vaccines per se it's particularly harmful. In my opinion, of course

However, the next time I see a post containing the opinion that hot cross buns are anything other than the Devil's fruity cushions, I'll hit that report button SO bloody fast...

a fairly natural swing towards questioning the mechanics of a massive global upheaval

Well that's an opinion!

Anyway, Mumsnet aren't daft..They realise that both types of opinion uses Mumsnet and they'd rather not get involved. And I suppose controversy is good for business.

Why the hell did you start it then?!

Bizarre.

I started the thread to discuss the civic responsibility of hosts of internet forums.

As I pointed out in my OP, there are plenty of threads where you can go to debate the vaccines themselves. A very suspiciously large number of them, in fact.

I absolutely do because in the case of Holocaust denial (and anti semitism, racism, etc) they are the result of proven manipulation by parties heavily invested in the theories, and dishonest thinking processes on the part of those who are attracted to them.

They rely on the tendency to believe in nefarious forces pulling strings in the background, giant conspiracies, an Us vs. Them mentality.

In the case of people promoting incest as a healthy lifestyle - same again: a deliberate turning of backs on societal wisdom in favour of insight held to be superior, and the deliberate refusal to look at the general welfare and the ill effects of the philosophy on society as a whole. The only valid reference point is what the proponents feel about what they're advocating.

I don’t want to say why I’m concerned about the vaccine programme for covid as it would be irresponsible as I don’t know what has caused the various events

but I would like some really detailed analysis into whether covid or its vaccines (or both) are a factor in the cardiac deaths in younger people

I don’t agree with your points at all. You are focusing hard on those who are deliberately mischief-making, and not considering at all those who are anxious/hesitant/distrustful/already harmed by medical intervention and wary/medically complex.

You’ve misunderstood the psychology of those who are sucked into conspiracies of this kind.

People refusing vaccines are anxious. They’re anxious they or their children will be irretrievably harmed by them.

They’re not refusing vaccines because they’re dishonest’ or out to get you, your kids, or society. They’re frightened for themselves and their families.

Denying them a chance to discuss their fears won’t help.

analysis has already been done. There is a greater cardiac risk from Covid than the vaccine.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/riskofdeathfollowingcovid19vaccinationorpositivesarscov2testinyoungpeopleengland/8december2020to25may2022

It's a good stance from MNHQ
I remember when people were hounded as anti vaxxers when they were discussing natural immunity.
Now it seems to be accepted that natural immunity offers greater protection.
It was wrong to close off any discussion regarding the covid vaccines by calling people anti vaxxers and conspiracy theorists.

I remember when people were hounded as anti vaxxers when they were discussing natural immunity.

Yes, the hounding was pretty vicious and pack-like at times. I guess people were very scared. And at the point we were being told that taking the vaccine would prevent others getting sick, not having it looked selfish on the face of it. The focus on threads was often very much on the fears that not enough people would be vaccinated, and not on the fears some people had about the repercussions of getting it. Questioning anything was jumped on very hard.

Now it seems to be accepted that natural immunity offers greater protection.
It was wrong to close off any discussion regarding the covid vaccines by calling people anti vaxxers and conspiracy theorists.

Sorry but where is that accepted?

And at the point we were being told that taking the vaccine would prevent others getting sick, not having it looked selfish on the face of it.
I’m not sure why you think this has changed? Of course not getting covid or getting it so mildly you can just cosy up on a sofa stops you from spreading the disease. Of course it is selfish to be unvaccinated if you live with weaker members who can’t be vaccinated, you are avoiding risk and I guess the agony of a very tiny needle while increasing their chance of infection.

That ‘if’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting! Yes, for those who are in the circumstance you mention, I would agree that it may possibly protect vulnerable family members if they can’t have their own vaccine. But only if the vaccine does in actual fact stop you being infectious to others.

But, unless I’m mistaken (and I could be, I haven’t followed this closely for quite a long while), having the vaccine doesn’t reduce the risk of you transmitting Covid, just like it doesn’t prevent you catching it. What it does do, is reduce the severity and risk of major complications and death if/when you do catch it. So the vaccine largely protects you only. Sensible to have it, if you don’t have any contra-indications. But not necessarily massively protective of others.

And we’ve seen that, haven’t we? Despite the vaccine programme and huge amount of take-up, Covid is still rampant. Though thankfully we don’t see the same level of serious illness as immunity is far greater, following vaccination and previous infection.

And the government also thinks it’s not a benefit to others to take the vaccine if you don’t need it yourself - otherwise they wouldn’t have reduced the scope of the vaccination programme.

Well said @ATerrorofLeftovers 👏🏼

Well it’s interesting as my husband and I chose not to be vaccinated, had covid once and remain uninfected since

my many friends who have been triple jabbed are on their third infections.

I simply no longer believe that natural immunity isn’t enough.

Relying only on natural immunity was in my opinion too big a risk. The risk, without vaccination of getting a severe case of Covid. Natural immunity is also unreliable - I preferred to have the vaccine which then trained by body how to react to the virus.

I posted this earlier in the thread and it confirms that how we dealt with and still are dealing with Covid should be reviewed and questioned.
Pre vaccine would we have been happy to know 500 + people were still going to die each week even with the vaccine?

The only reason I had vaccine was so I could travel. I have now had three vaccines and Covid four times, have decided that’s it I’m not getting any more boosters.

How do you still support it, how many people are in your situation?

I'm happy to have the flu vaccine annually 🤷‍♀️
So Happy to have the Covid Booster if and when.

It's interesting how arbitrary some people's reasons sound

"only because they can travel "

"that's it, no more"

Hi @Useruser1 What will you be treating us to this time?

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/1756596/BBC-presenter-lisa-shaw-death-husband-sued-Covid-vaccine

I'm interested in this user's personal experience of having been severely disabled by the covid jab. I'm sure you are too!

If you're asserting that anxiety around vaccines is not inspired by some guff that originated on QAnon or similar, then I disagree.

All of the hesitancy over vaccines is the result of overt and covert opinion manipulation. All of the receptivity comes from dishonest thinking and, frankly, sheer ignorance of statistics and of how vaccines are developed, tested, and authorised for use.

It's a heady mixture, where scientific ignorance builds on whispers of attractively simple answers to complicated questions all over the internet and, sadly, all over politics, because some politicians are utter charlatans. You seriously underestimate the attractiveness of simple answers for a great number of people.

All this nervousness all over the internet has its origin in the multiple internet and political voices whose aim is the discrediting of all sources of authority, including medical and scientific, but also political and legal, that constitute the foundations of society.

Again, there is no obligation on the part of MN or any other site to host any of this.