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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

915 replies

ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 10/06/2021 13:02

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

OP posts:
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Datun · 16/06/2021 01:22

The proposed sections are
Feminism Chat
Sex and Gender discussion

What this conveniently does is segregate the largest women's rights battle happening currently. Not just physically but also linguistically by distancing it from the word feminism.

I think that's the crux of why most of us are unhappy.

What about
feminism (sex/gender) and
feminism (chat)

Because, yes, otherwise it looks as though the sex/gender topic is nothing to do with feminism, but chat is, which is wrong.

Fallingirl · 16/06/2021 01:29

If we can’t have the word “feminism” for the gulag board, could we have “Femalism”?

The Femalism board would be discussing everything sex and gender related, but with a clear focus on females.

The remaining board could, as OP suggests, be called Femininity Chat,
which could easily include feminine “gender identities”, for those who believe in the existence of these.

Splitting the boards this way would then very handily split us up both by topics and ideological perspective.

Fallingirl · 16/06/2021 01:49

And just to add, the new board would quite clearly signal the topics discussed, so we wouldn’t need special rules. People who do not want to be exposed to a feminism radically focussed on females would have the other board to use. No one need feel offended.

33feethighandrising · 16/06/2021 05:10

in reality policing what you can post where is going to be a massive headache

It will be a massive headache for Mumsnet! I can't think they have thought this through, they're setting themselves up for a mammoth job, and for what?

If people want a feminist board without GC and radical feminism let them set it up elsewhere, not gouge out one of the most popular sections on the site.

Instead they're suggesting they set swim against the tide. For what?

Haven't they learnt yet, that they won't make the TRAs and MRAs happy until they have completely banned us from talking about women's rights on this site?

And I'm pretty sure that's not what MN want, else they wouldn't have put all this effort into trying to compromise all this time.

ChateauMargaux · 16/06/2021 07:04

What was requested and what most posters on this and other threads is the ability to post freely on the topic of sex and gender and its consequences for feminism.

Creating a seperate space for sex and gender discussions will result in our words being monitored, questioned and policed.

Posters will make their own opinions on whether our words belong in feminism or not. We already know there is a strong and vocal opinion that feminism should include trans women. I personally do not agree with this. If this segregation goes ahead, my voice and that of many others will be censored on the feminist board. This is the exact opposite of what the majority of posters on this thread want.

Datun · 16/06/2021 07:19

Creating a seperate space for sex and gender discussions will result in our words being monitored, questioned and policed.

I agree. Outside monitors make no secret of it.

If this segregation goes ahead, my voice and that of many others will be censored on the feminist board.

Honestly. Maya Forstater spent two bloody years to ensure gender critical beliefs were protected in law. Two years to make sure feminists could talk freely about the erasure of women's rights.

Two years. And now even the word feminist is to be censored from the entire board discussing them!

Caorthann · 16/06/2021 07:38

Honestly. Maya Forstater spent two bloody years to ensure gender critical beliefs were protected in law. Two years to make sure feminists could talk freely about the erasure of women's rights.

Maya Forstater has talked of how she was "radicalised on Mumsnet."
Its not a bad thing but refers to consciousness raising.

Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?
OhHolyJesus · 16/06/2021 08:09

This is the exact opposite of what the majority of posters on this thread want.

Exactly, and those are the regular posters on the feminist chat board.

It's also not what the OP was asking, can we return to this please @mnhq?

The decision to split the board is effectively a derail.

I think Fallingirl is right

the new board would quite clearly signal the topics discussed, so we wouldn’t need special rules

So that would be an up-side of the generally rejected decision to split and sub-categorise. It would be good to have confirmation of this.

oldwomanwhoruns · 16/06/2021 08:12

Please call our board "Womens Rights", if you need to make a change.
Feminism- Women's Rights.

We don't care what you call the other one, "Feminism- Other" if you like. Or "Feminism- Pink Fluffy Stuff".

Please please not Sex and Gender, it sounds like a discussion board for Positions. Or How Many Partners (at one time) Angry

MarshaBradyo · 16/06/2021 08:13

@oldwomanwhoruns

Please call our board "Womens Rights", if you need to make a change. Feminism- Women's Rights.

We don't care what you call the other one, "Feminism- Other" if you like. Or "Feminism- Pink Fluffy Stuff".

Please please not Sex and Gender, it sounds like a discussion board for Positions. Or How Many Partners (at one time) Angry

Agree
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/06/2021 08:13

@JustineMumsnet
As sex and gender are much wider than the trans issue and a core thread running through feminism it is inevitable that they will be a component part of many feminist discussions. It is also clear that active users of the board do not agree with your suggestion and are concerned it is an attempt by a vocal minority of posters to marginalise a discussion they would rather was not happening. My suggestion is that you leave feminism chat alone and create an intersectional / lib fem space for those who want it. I do not think it is fair that we will be jumping through mental hoops trying to work out what board to post on when a topic bridges across equality and sex and gender issues. FGM is a sex based issue but we also discussed the targeting of Hibo Wardere by trans activists. Where should that go? Surely FGM is a general feminist topic?

Thecatonthemat · 16/06/2021 08:27

What about Women feminism and sex based rights. And anything else relating to Feminism. Leave gender out as many of us do not believe there is such a thing.

Thecatonthemat · 16/06/2021 08:30

There are now four or five threads on this with a clear majority not in favour of changes. Why do it and alienate long serving poster and lurkers?

Vanishun · 16/06/2021 09:33

I appreciate there are a few threads on this and that MNHQ might not be keeping up with them all.

So I thought I'd say, if you are taking any user feedback at this stage, I and others would be grateful if the new topic included the word Feminism.

Hathertonhariden · 16/06/2021 09:57

@Sophoclesthefox

Here’s an idea. What if you flipped it, and had a section for trans issues, including “intersectional feminism”? In addition to the LGBT parenting board.

People there can discuss those topics relating to trans that don’t take a gender critical feminist perspective.

I for one, as a confirmed gender atheist, would be happy to promise not to post anything about my version of feminism there. My concern genuinely is women’s rights, and if people did want to have a section where they discussed trans and feminist issues where opinions like mine wouldn’t be encouraged, I wouldn’t oppose that.

I think that could equally serve the needs of people who find feminist chat overwhelming.

Worth considering?

This
GiantToadstool · 16/06/2021 09:58

Perfect.

Xenia · 16/06/2021 11:58

I have never really understood why trans people get to upset. If I get upset about anything on line I just move away from a thread or go out for a walk. Why censor things?

PickAChew · 16/06/2021 11:59

I can't see how the proposed changes can keep anyone happy with the suggestion that discussion related to the long term consequences of pinkification on women's rights be somehow parked in the naughty corner when, quite rightly, that discussion will not stay away from the feminist chat board.

And for the record, I'm one of those thousands who hid the feminism topic, many many years ago when I always felt like I had put my foot in my mouth after posting there and now I can't unhide it, which is annoying as there is another topic I would very much like to hide.

Vanishun · 16/06/2021 12:13

@Xenia

I have never really understood why trans people get to upset. If I get upset about anything on line I just move away from a thread or go out for a walk. Why censor things?
The problem is, any kind of questioning is perceived as a real threat to someone who has a fragile identity, or who is in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Echo chamber behaviour is getting stronger all the time, and its why these people become even more surprised and upset when people in real life challenge ideas.

Vanishun · 16/06/2021 12:16

You can Google how to hide topics, it can be done on a desktop (or desktop view on a mobile). I have several sections hidden, including coronavirus and possibly feminism as at key points I need to take a mental break from them. I then have these as favourites in the app so I can dip into them when needed.

rainbow1010 · 16/06/2021 12:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PickAChew · 16/06/2021 13:00

I suspect I need to fish out my old laptop and log in on that, @vanishun because I got nowhere trying to navigate the desktop browser on my phone screen.

Stopthisnow · 16/06/2021 16:49

@JustineMumsnet I appreciate you are under pressure and I have no doubt you have received many complaints about feminist chat from people claiming to be women. What I doubt is that most of those complaints are from people born the female sex, and/or people who genuinely want to talk about topics from a´libfem’ perspective on feminist chat. I think if the people who made these complaints really wanted to discuss things from a ‘libfem’ perspective, but also didn’t want an echo chamber, they would simply post on feminist chat as it is. Indeed, I’ve seen many posters argue from a ‘libfem’ perspective, with posters on feminist chat being more than happy to debate them. If people who have ‘libfem’ views genuinely believe there is problem on feminist chat, I think it is because they cannot effectively counter the arguments by other posters on feminist chat who view women a sex class, this results in those with a ‘libfem’ perspective experiencing cognitive dissonance. I understand this may be uncomfortable for them, and understand why it leads them to desire to create an echo chamber, where they don’t have to experience cognitive dissonance. However, it is not reasonable in my opinion to try and create a echo chamber from existing boards for their benefit, so they don’t have to defend their position(s), as it functions to stifle debate rather than opening it up. If they desire an echo chamber, I would suggest they be directed to one of the many ‘libfem’ sites that currently exist, or as other PP have suggested why not create one for them on this site that doesn’t interfere with posters on existing boards who do not desire an echo chamber and do wish to debate?

Feminist chat is popular because people talk about how gender ideology is harmful to females, homosexuals and children, I think it is precisely because of this that there is a concerted effort to split it, those complaining under the pretext that they are ‘libfems’ who can’t post as they can get a word in, are being disingenuous in my opinion. I think even if you split the feminist section so that ‘libfems’ don’t have to debate with anyone with an opposing view, before long you would again be inundated with messages urging you to silence discussions on the area dedicated to discussing the harms of gender ideology, as the real aim is to shutdown discussions on this issue in my opinion.

I have seen this sort of thing play out before on previous women’s and lesbian’s sites, men flood the site (claiming to be ‘inclusive’ women) they complain about women on the site being mean to men when they discuss the harms of genderism. They try and get the rules of the site changed, in order to get women on the site removed, if they talk about the harms of men claiming to be women. Mods usually decide there are certain places on the site where women are restricted to discussing this issue. However, the issue obviously comes up in many contexts so women continue to post outside the designated areas, the men complain again that women are posting outside of the allotted areas, the mods then start vigorously deleting women for this infraction. From what I have seen this has invariably led to women leaving the site and it becoming deserted, or men take-over the site turning it into an echo chamber for genderists. (The only sites I haven’t seen go this way are sites with little to no moderation but they have other issues, e.g. excessive trolls who are free to run wild.) In short I think this is simply a tactic to closedown debate, and results in a type of colonisation of women’s online spaces, as the women who were originally there are pushed out by men, who then are free to claim the space as theirs. I see a similar tactic being used here.

If I understand correctly you are saying you are not going to delete posts that mention gender ideology outside the allotted area if it relates to the subject of the thread? Even if posts raising the harms of gender ideology are restricted to a designated area, if that area then becomes as popular as feminist chat, it will inevitably be targeted. Moreover, as the dangers of gender ideology become more widely reported, more people will end up looking for a place to discuss it, and likely will end up on the designated board. It is clear to me that when this happens, you will again be inundated with requests to close that board down, or restrict speech on it even further. I sympathise that you are under pressure, but if you keep trying to placate authoritarian bullies, they will never stop. My question is what will you do when they inevitably try to close the dedicated board down or restrict speech on it even further?

LangClegsInSpace · 16/06/2021 21:29

I really wish you had started a separate thread to announce your intention to split fwr. That's not what the OP is about, it's a massive derail. You appear to have no intention of changing the special rules as part of this reshuffle so I don't understand why you have smerged the two issues together. It makes both issues more difficult to discuss.

Alternista · 16/06/2021 21:53

Why you’ve answered your own question there Lang.

Merge the issues to make them more difficult to discuss and to distract people from the lack of answers.