Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

[ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn]

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

I think the point is gender ideology doesn’t go in feminism chat. So even if you disagree with GC feminists you don’t get a separate topic where everyone agrees on it.

It’s more topics outside gender ideology .

Will be interesting to see how it works in reality.

If feminism chat is very slow maybe we can have it back.

There is definitely a sense that Feminism Chat is only a place to discuss gender critical feminism.

I can't tell if they are pretending other topics aren't discussed or whether they count everything as GC feminism. Maternity care for women of colour, rape while asleep, stalking - I assume 'there is a sense' that these are purely GC topics then? Which goes to show how problematic separating topics is.

@CardinalLolzy

There is definitely a sense that Feminism Chat is only a place to discuss gender critical feminism.

I can't tell if they are pretending other topics aren't discussed or whether they count everything as GC feminism. Maternity care for women of colour, rape while asleep, stalking - I assume 'there is a sense' that these are purely GC topics then? Which goes to show how problematic separating topics is.

It goes to show the hyperbole being used.

This morning’s count as per the twitter monitor bot was that 27/50 threads were ‘trans related’. However, we see the many exaggerations all the time. Someone told us 95% the other day and never acknowledged they had hugely exaggerated.

Almost like they had some other agenda….

Actually ignore my previous suggestion, I don’t think separating the boards is a good idea at all, it will simply create echo chambers.

I'm a little confused. If I want to talk about a general feminist topic, like say pornography, do I put that in feminism chat? Because it's not specifically about gender ideology?

And does it mean that you can't then mention gender ideology on that thread?

Yes, that's an excellent question @JustineMumsnet

@Quaggars

I quite like 'Feminism Chat' and '"Feminism" Chat'

Ha ha I like it, subtle

Yeah, therein lies the problem on here

There's only one way to feminism, if you don't always agree it's ha ha "feminism" in quotation marks.

That's not just a "problem" "around here".

It's not remotely surprising that second wave/ women's liberationists consider liberal feminism (sex work is liberating etc), to not be real feminism.

I think feminism can be intersectional while also being gender critical so I’m not keen on that divide. Perhaps there is a thread already discussing this though? I don’t want to derail this one.

^I don't think it's a case of '' not liking the feminism board ''
As it clearly says its more that liberal views get drowned out and made to feel unable to post (ie, when they do get pushed off with man, handmaiden, whatever)
I think it'd be nice if there was room for those voices.^

Cobblers @Quaggars

MN is like any other public forum, as in users don’t decide who says what nor are the obligated to have to read or even acknowledge what others opinions are. Facebook or Twitter I believe number of likes works for those who are needy

People feel like they can’t post is down to themselves no one else, posting in FWR is no different to anywhere else on site except the topic, just as those that a free to jump in offering support etc to others, the poster is not obligated to give running update on progress.

Stuff having to handhold every delicate flower.

Mumsnet was always no frills or fan fare direct approach and netmums if you covered in glitter softly stuff with X and u ok hun.

Words have been taken to mean different things these days like liberal just another ‘inclusive’ and liberal views as in shut up women

Maybe we need just a feminism chat & egalitarianism chat.

🤷🏻‍♀️

what a shame

there are some really great threads on FWR that are nothing to do with genderism. this just ensures that fewer people will see them.

think feminism can be intersectional while also being gender critical so I’m not keen on that divide. Perhaps there is a thread already discussing this though? I don’t want to derail this one.

Same here. I also think that "intersectional" feminism which doesn't recognise being born female as an axis of oppression separate from gender identity is nothing of the sort.

It's basically being used as an inane, trendy buzzword by people who don't believe in sex based oppression.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Surely it will just mean that the sex/gender board becomes the reincarnation of feminism chat, which was the reincarnation of FWR?

I strongly suspect that is what will happen. I am also very much looking to all the posts in the sex/gender free feminism section though

I think so too. Given there are already other feminism topics, if people really wanted another board, they’d just have gone to one of those and encouraged others to do so. I guess this gives a fresh start and a few people might make an effort at the beginning as it will be more visible, but ultimately I suspect there will end up being one board that is busy and another with so little traffic that it will die a death.

Cobblers
Sorry but that got a genuine lol

Any trolls will certainly follow us over to the new FWR.

@Ereshkigalangcleg exactly. Intersectionalism done properly is really important. But it’s not a stick to beat the nasty wimminz up with.

Sorry Quaagars, unfortunate x post.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

think feminism can be intersectional while also being gender critical so I’m not keen on that divide. Perhaps there is a thread already discussing this though? I don’t want to derail this one.

Same here. I also think that "intersectional" feminism which doesn't recognise being born female as an axis of oppression separate from gender identity is nothing of the sort.

Yes.

From what I’ve seen of it (a limited sample, I’m sure), the people who don’t think they can discuss feminism in feminist chat don’t actually want to talk about feminism in any meaningful sense. I honestly don’t know what topics they want to discuss.

Those who are in favour, could you please give me some examples to help me understand? What would you go and post about right now if this new board existed?

From what I’ve seen of it (a limited sample, I’m sure), the people who don’t think they can discuss feminism in feminist chat don’t actually want to talk about feminism in any meaningful sense.

From what I've seen, they simply don't want us to talk about feminism how and about what we want to, rather than talk about feminism themselves. But maybe o will be pleasantly surprised.

Was there a response to the op from MNHQ?

Surely it will just mean that the sex/gender board becomes the reincarnation of feminism chat, which was the reincarnation of FWR?

i don't think so

there are loads of threads on FWR that are nothing to do with genderism and will therefore belong on the 'good feminists' board. i just think it will split the traffic, so overall there will be far less interaction and less chat about feminism altogether on mumsnet.

it's sad

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Any trolls will certainly follow us over to the new FWR.

I rather wish it was actually a “gender critical feminism” board so that trolls could be very quickly identified and moved. But no wonder Justine doesn’t want to frame it that way. Likely the back and forth is, in part, what drives the discussion. Fraught boards with polarised opinions (like AIBU) tend to be popular.

Intersectional has come to something different, which I think is a useful distinction.

*come to mean

Agreed. Do we have a response yet?