Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

[ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn]

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

[quote shesellsseacats]@JustineMumsnet I have a better idea.

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, MN could keep the main topic as feminism (all feminist related topics welcome) and then a sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.[/quote]
This is a compromise that gives those who want a space free of this discussion what they want, without pissing off a huge number of your members, silencing women, having the headache of moderating this etc etc.

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, MN could keep the main topic as feminism (all feminist related topics welcome) and then a sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.

YY that's a far better idea. No need to move threads about or police where people put things.

[quote shesellsseacats]@JustineMumsnet I have a better idea.

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, MN could keep the main topic as feminism (all feminist related topics welcome) and then a sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.[/quote]
I think this is a much better idea.

[quote shesellsseacats]@JustineMumsnet I have a better idea.

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, MN could keep the main topic as feminism (all feminist related topics welcome) and then a sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.[/quote]
Sounds good

[quote shesellsseacats]@JustineMumsnet I have a better idea.

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, MN could keep the main topic as feminism (all feminist related topics welcome) and then a sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.[/quote]
Like there's a no corona zone ... a No Sex or Gender Please Zone.

[quote shesellsseacats]@JustineMumsnet I have a better idea.

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, MN could keep the main topic as feminism (all feminist related topics welcome) and then a sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.[/quote]
No, this doesn't work.

RTFT.

@OvaHere

Several posters whose knowledge and expertise about safeguarding have been removed this way.

Yes we lost Lang but most women may not know that R0wantrees received a weeks suspension that was supposed to end May 18th but she remains without access to her account.

Her third strike/suspension was for quoting from a feminist newsletter despite her not being the only one posting it.

I would very much like to see her reinstated as I'm sure others would.

You are right. I didn’t know that.

I’d like R0wantrees back!

Why is this being done again?

The first time around, a bunch of posters complained that they didn’t like what feminists were posting about.

MN created a bunch of extra boards and told the original feminists that if they wanted to talk about radical feminist ideas they had to go and do it on the ‘feminist theory’ board.

The complaining posters never actually used the chat board they demanded the feminists be chucked off of, so all the feminists gravitated back to the chat board.

This is the same thing happening all over again. If there are people who don’t like the feminist board and want to do some other kind of feminism, create them a new board.

You could call it ‘board for complaining about feminists doing feminism wrong.’

If this is going to turn into one of those "bring back so and so" posts I'll chip in with I wouldn't want to be brought back

I don't think this post is particularly In The Spirit if R0 can't defend herself. I suggest you should ask MN to delete it.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

some of the posters saying they have had rude responses or been made to feel unwelcome have never posted on FWR

Plus, it is perfectly normal for there to be prevailing views on all sorts of topics, on all the different boards. Try going onto The Doghouse and saying you're thinking of breeding a couple of litters from your new dog, if you want to experience responses of a rudeness that would get FWR posters deleted in seconds! Or tell the Weaning board that you have introduced solids at 4 months, etc etc.

I don't see MN proposing that posters who hold the prevailing view on other boards should be segregated off into a specialist board. It seems an incredibly odd idea to punish posters for the fact that a the majority agree with them.

In the light of the Forstater judgement, it would not only seem incredibly odd: it would seem discriminatory. Which is the point of the thread, even though Justine's dead cat seems to be derailing it

You know what, I have typed and deleted about six posts, because, for once, I don't know how to be effective in what I say.

So I'm just going to say what is uppermost in my mind.

justine, I can't remember the exact wording, but you publicly said something along the lines of being worried about the thought police shutting down free speech, and this site being targeted by transactivists labelling the gender critical point of view as transphobic.

There was an element of over my dead body about it. It was rousing, leadership stuff.

And now you're suggesting that the very same women you were defending, should be siloed off down in the basement, next to the boiler.

I honestly don't get it.

[quote shesellsseacats]@JustineMumsnet I have a better idea.

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, MN could keep the main topic as feminism (all feminist related topics welcome) and then a sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.[/quote]
I thought this was what was basically being suggested - just in reverse? Or is the reverse the issue?

I think the insurmountable issue is not the title or arrangement of the boards.

It’s our opinions that are troublesome.

I’ve seen the special rules for FWR follow FWR regulars to other parts of the site. And conversely, I’ve seen newbies to FWR inadvertently step on language land mines they had no idea existed, and run off with their tails between their legs, terrified to post again, because there has been a presumption of bad faith on their part.

It’s far from a new idea that many many people just find this site troublesome/laughable/a dangerous hotbed of radical ideas, simply because it’s women together talking and raising consciousness.

That won’t change. There’s nothing that anyone from HQ can say or do to change that perception, because the people holding it don’t want to change it.

So knowing this, could we perhaps drop the board segregation idea and get back to discussing the potential update to the rules, given that the troublesome opinions that gender critical feminists tend to have are in fact definitely both worthy of holding, and fit to be expressed in public?

... could we perhaps drop the board segregation idea and get back to discussing the potential update to the rules, given that the troublesome opinions that gender critical feminists tend to have are in fact definitely both worthy of holding, and fit to be expressed in public?

Yes, please.

I 100% disagree with MNHQ suggestion here. It’s like exiling us for talking about our own rights.

Yes please 🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️

@Sophoclesthefox

I think the insurmountable issue is not the title or arrangement of the boards.

It’s our opinions that are troublesome.

I’ve seen the special rules for FWR follow FWR regulars to other parts of the site. And conversely, I’ve seen newbies to FWR inadvertently step on language land mines they had no idea existed, and run off with their tails between their legs, terrified to post again, because there has been a presumption of bad faith on their part.

It’s far from a new idea that many many people just find this site troublesome/laughable/a dangerous hotbed of radical ideas, simply because it’s women together talking and raising consciousness.

That won’t change. There’s nothing that anyone from HQ can say or do to change that perception, because the people holding it don’t want to change it.

So knowing this, could we perhaps drop the board segregation idea and get back to discussing the potential update to the rules, given that the troublesome opinions that gender critical feminists tend to have are in fact definitely both worthy of holding, and fit to be expressed in public?

Agree. I think MN is dammed if they do and damned if they don't anyway.

The main issue is the thread title.

100% disagree with MNHQ idea for changes to this board.

Yes to re writing the "rules" for FWR, though, in light of Maya's victory yesterday.

I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity here

Wow. Did you mean to be so rude?

head tilt

Way to read the room...

@Thelnebriati

I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity

Thats another slap in the face.

Haven’t read rest of thread as so angry at this, did Justine really just call us all transphobic by suggesting we want to be disrespectful and non inclusive??

@Bordois

I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity here

Wow. Did you mean to be so rude?

head tilt

Way to read the room...

Yes. This.

But this thread has drifted.

Can we please reconsider the moderation on the FWR board in light of yesterday’s decision?

I’m delighted to know that my beliefs are worthy of respect in a democratic society and that I have the right to express them.

I promise that I will not subject people to personal attacks or harassment for their beliefs but request that I received the same treatment in return.

Massive slap in the face from mumsnet there.

While I respect you may have lost some advertisers for your stance on allowing women to discuss feminist issues I’m also aware of a number of women who have joined the board for the feminist section.

And let’s face it we’re the product here. The reason you have advertisers is because you have however many regular page views, unique posters, comments, etc.

Now it’s been confirmed in a court of law I have a right to believe you can’t change sex, I would like to be free to discuss around this belief with less censorship.

Of course humans cannot change sex. If MNHQ must create a separate section, maybe it should be where people go to discuss topics that affect women but no sex and gender get mentioned. Something akin WEP’s or Fawcett Society’s version of feminism.

@Quaggars

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You know, if you don't want to read a "wall of text" by a certain poster/posters, you could just scroll on past...

Rather than obsessively reporting and trying to get women banned because you don't like them posting about women's rights and safeguarding.