Policy on under the radar racism

[Steroidsandantidepressants]

Hi mnhq.

This isn’t a tatt but it’s come to light on another thread that there are a number of issues around tone and language that feels exclusionary to posters from Ireland, the Celtic nations of the UK and America as well.

It’s things like Halloween being decried and how it’s an American import, turnips, mockery of Irish names and their spellings and categorising them as naughty names.

Also the “have a paddy”. The haitch is horrible, Santa is horrible. And an Americanism.

It contributes to a feeling of not being welcome here. And it is a subtle racism.

Is there any chance you could have a chat in the office and come up with a stronger policy that would take this into account?

if someone suggesting Halloween is an American import is racism that you find distressing and want removed then you are going to have a tough and disappointing time living in a western democracy.

Every year there are numerous posts along the lines of "I hate this vile Halloween thing, stupid American traditions, it's not British". A) it came to the US from Scotland (and Ireland) so has always been celebrated in the UK, people just can't imagine that the whole of the UK isn't the same as their little corner. B) those posts are pretty sneering towards Americans and a longstanding Scottish and Irish cultural event. Again, it comes down to tone, and a willingness to actually engage with and learn from the replies received.

American isn't even a race.

As OP has explained, the equality act includes nationality in the definition of racism, it's not just about skin colour.

As for the Haitch thing I pronounce it that way, but not because of my genetic origins. I wasn't even aware that people thought it had genetic origins. Is there a link to a paper?

The haitch/aitch threads tend to be full of (English, mainly) posters insisting that haitch is wrong. Not just a regional variation, flat out wrong, and that the use of haitch marks someone out as uneducated or uncivilised. Haitch is actually correct in Ireland, so that's factually untrue. In NI it's a shibboleth - very broadly, nationalists/Catholics identify as Irish and say haitch, unionists/Protestants identify as British and say aitch. People will be asked to spell a word containing that letter so their community background can be identified. If you know anything about the history of NI you'll understand why judging anyone on their pronunciation of the letter is viewed as sectarian and pretty damn unpleasant.

Again, understandable that someone with no links to NI might not know that. But the decent response is "gosh, I never knew that, how interesting, I'd best stop judging!" and not continuing to insist haitch is wrong.

I don’t think it’s racism so much as middle class arrogance that Our Way Is The Right Way. Dislike of Santa / Halloween is snobbery, but I don’t think it is racism.

I’ve also reported use of ‘moron’ and been told that in the correct context it’s acceptable to use.

However, this discussion is about racism towards the Irish and the Celtic nations of the uk...[and] Americans

Racism by who?

@CovidDilemma

if someone suggesting Halloween is an American import is racism that you find distressing and want removed then you are going to have a tough and disappointing time living in a western democracy.

Every year there are numerous posts along the lines of "I hate this vile Halloween thing, stupid American traditions, it's not British". A) it came to the US from Scotland (and Ireland) so has always been celebrated in the UK, people just can't imagine that the whole of the UK isn't the same as their little corner. B) those posts are pretty sneering towards Americans and a longstanding Scottish and Irish cultural event. Again, it comes down to tone, and a willingness to actually engage with and learn from the replies received.

American isn't even a race.

As OP has explained, the equality act includes nationality in the definition of racism, it's not just about skin colour.

As for the Haitch thing I pronounce it that way, but not because of my genetic origins. I wasn't even aware that people thought it had genetic origins. Is there a link to a paper?

The haitch/aitch threads tend to be full of (English, mainly) posters insisting that haitch is wrong. Not just a regional variation, flat out wrong, and that the use of haitch marks someone out as uneducated or uncivilised. Haitch is actually correct in Ireland, so that's factually untrue. In NI it's a shibboleth - very broadly, nationalists/Catholics identify as Irish and say haitch, unionists/Protestants identify as British and say aitch. People will be asked to spell a word containing that letter so their community background can be identified. If you know anything about the history of NI you'll understand why judging anyone on their pronunciation of the letter is viewed as sectarian and pretty damn unpleasant.

Again, understandable that someone with no links to NI might not know that. But the decent response is "gosh, I never knew that, how interesting, I'd best stop judging!" and not continuing to insist haitch is wrong.

It can be correct in Ireland and still be considered wrong by someone with no connections to Ireland, without them being racist. I don't see how the sensitivity of a person in N Ireland should police language usage everywhere else. In working class Wales, haitch/aitch has no connection to N Ireland usage at all.

If a particular cake was hugely divisive in a community, would you expect people around the world to change their cake eating habits as a result?
Say, Welsh cakes with/without currants were hugely divisive in Wales between South and North, or welsh speaking and English speaking, or east and west... Would that mean an Australian would have to be careful about saying whether welshcakes 'should or shouldnt' have currants?

I don't understand how a sensitivity very specific to a region can be taken as microaggression somewhere quite different.

As OP has explained, the equality act includes nationality in the definition of racism, it's not just about skin colour.

But as Halloween isnt American, and so disliking it cannot be racist against Americans so that's a moot point, even if you thought disliking Halloween could be construed as racist, which I t can't because Halloween traditions are not representative of a specific culture, nation or ethnicity.

The aitch/Haitch thing is interesting because it's something that has a very specific sectarian meaning in NI/Ireland and a different specific class/snobbery meaning in England. Neither of which are pleasant but again as it's not uniquely cultural or representative of a specific nation (haitch is used commonly in northern England and Australia). I agree it indicates ignorance and small-mindedness to judge people on their pronounciation of a letter, but that's not the same as racism, and conflating these things helps not one.

And actually regardless of policies and micro aggressions and policing of language and tone, people can still manage to be a dick.

I don't think getting ever more detailed about what is offensive is going to stop people being sneery and patronising.

I agree with a PP, a lot of it is class based, and people need to be more tolerant not less.

@Flaxmeadow

If you look at the history of English attitudes toward the Irish, it's not hard to consider these things racist. Throughout the colonial era, the Irish were seen as not quite as 'savage' as Africans but not civilised enough to be proper white Europeans either. There is a lot of eye-opening scholarship on this. It explains a lot about ongoing bigotry today.

I'm not sure most Irish historians would agree with this. Yours is very much an American perspective on historical relations between Irish and English people, who often got along OK and certainly intermarried often. Many English people have some Irish ancestry and vice versa

I come from a very Irish part of the US originally and I've been shocked many times on MN by anti-Irish and ignorant posts. If you said these things there, wow, you'd be getting an earful. I completely agree with you OP.

Or agree that the US has "Irish parts" or that Americans, by nationality and upbringing, can be "Irish"

It's not an American perspective I just happen to be American. I'm also an academic and there is certainly a considerable amount of research, going back decades and not just by Americans, on British attitudes toward the Irish and how they were used to justify horrific treatment of the population during the colonial era. It would certainly qualify as racism by modern standards.

Of course people sometimes got along on a personal level, just like today people of diverse backgrounds often get along, it doesn't mean racism doesn't exist.

And of course there are Irish parts of the US, by that I mean areas with a significant Irish-American population that is very obvious in everyday life. We had a long thread about this recently and it's clear many in the UK don't accept that Americans can be 'Irish' but 30 million Irish-Americans would beg to differ.

Actually that thread was rife with the kinds of things the OP is talking about. Lots of, oh those Americans are so stupid, thinking they can be Irish.

Bohemian, can you explain how being Irish American works? I understand having Irish ancestors, or an Irish mother/grandmother. If it's several generations back, what marks someone as Irish American? Are their cultural differences beyond celebrating St Patrick's day?

I ask because I'm Welsh. My parents barely acknowledged being Welsh- we're close to a border and there were times it was classed as 'Monmouthshire', neither England nor Wales.

Im married to an Englishman, have lived in England since I was 18, my kids would never consider themselves welsh in any way. Wouldn't even root for Wales in a sports match. Rude.

@picklemewalnuts

Bohemian, can you explain how being Irish American works? I understand having Irish ancestors, or an Irish mother/grandmother. If it's several generations back, what marks someone as Irish American? Are their cultural differences beyond celebrating St Patrick's day?

I ask because I'm Welsh. My parents barely acknowledged being Welsh- we're close to a border and there were times it was classed as 'Monmouthshire', neither England nor Wales.

Im married to an Englishman, have lived in England since I was 18, my kids would never consider themselves welsh in any way. Wouldn't even root for Wales in a sports match. Rude.

Would you ask the same of an African American?

Would you ask the same of an African American?

Sure, why not? It’s very interesting to me the reasons people of any race or nationality choose to hyphenate themselves, regardless of how far removed from the country by generations and personal experience.

There must be reasons and I’m always curious about people and what their heritage means to them, if they see cultural differences retained after decades—even centuries in some cases—and how/if it benefits them to do so.

I would ask it of anyone because it could be a great conversation.

If a black person with a Welsh accent, parents with welsh accents, had been to the local school with my kids, it wouldn't cross my mind to wonder about their ancestry.

If they mentioned their roots were Caribbean, or Haitian, or anything else, I might ask whether they have family there, or have visited or wanted to. If they were supporting Jamaica in the olympics, there might be a bit of friendly joshing, I expect. Not with me though, because I couldn't give a hoot who about sport.

I'm hoping the pp will explain the Irish American thing to me because it doesn't fit in any context I understand. I'm not saying "How thick are Americans, claiming to be Irish when they clearly aren't". I'm trying to understand how it feels. As I say, my kids do not in anyway consider themselves welsh despite having a Welsh parent, Welsh cousins, and grandparents, aunts and uncles. What is it that people retain that I haven't retained for my kids? All they have is an occasional use of 'now in a minute'.

I see stereotypical Greek American cultural identity on tv, probably Italian American too. Though usually those depicted have grandparents that were born in the home country and still have at least a hint of an accent.

I don't see German American, French American, English American, Dutch American etc. etc.

And of course there are Irish parts of the US, by that I mean areas with a significant Irish-American population that is very obvious in everyday life

More Irish migrated to Britain than to the USA. We have the odd Irish themed pub but no "Irish parts". Why would we, the Irish integrated into British families and vice versa. There isn't much difference between Irish and British people, culturally, ethnically, historically and so on. People identify with the country they are born and raised in more here

We had a long thread about this recently and it's clear many in the UK don't accept that Americans can be 'Irish' but 30 million Irish-Americans would beg to differ

But millions of Irish people don't accept it either.

Look at Biden. He says he's Irish, for some reason, all the time but he obviously isn't and he has more English ancestry than Irish anyway. He is blatantly othering Englishness. He is kind of giving out his own anti English micro aggressions I suppose

It's like if Nicola Sturgeon started calling herself English because she had a Grt Grt Grandad from Watford or wherever , Scottish people would be confused and maybe a little bit insulted too

What is it that people retain that I haven't retained for my kids?

Is it not more a case of it wasn't retained for you as you say your parents weren't fussed about being Welsh? My grandfather was Irish, he died when my mum was very young and his family thought it was really important for my mum and her siblings to learn about their heritage with a side helping of anti Englishness and sectarian songs. The disappointment when she married my dad (English/Welsh and in the military to boot) was unmatched in family history up until I got married and managed to go one worse. I got the poetry, the stories and the sectarian songs but no sense of Irish identity because my mum doesn't see herself as being Irish if that makes sense.

It's not an American perspective hmm I just happen to be American. I'm also an academic and there is certainly a considerable amount of research, going back decades and not just by Americans, on British attitudes toward the Irish and how they were used to justify horrific treatment of the population during the colonial era. It would certainly qualify as racism by modern standards.

Rich people exploited poor people the world over. Wealthy Irish people exploited Irish people. The English poor were exploited by their wealthy countrymen too, Welsh, Scots the same. The colonial era wasn't much fun for the labouring class of any country. Whether you were an agricultural labourer in Ireland or a coal miner in England. They all lived short brutal short lives

Even if it isnt racist the arrogance displayed by some people in their dislike of people doing or saying things differently from them is horrible.

More Irish migrated to Britain than to the USA.

Flaxmeadow, where do you get that statistic and is it a current number or does it represent numbers from early 19th century onward? I’m asking because I’m curious.

Loads to discuss about this, but perhaps a different thread. If it’s allowed and not a thread about a thread (which wasn’t about yet another thread).

OP, apologies because your original thread has been hijacked. You made some interesting points and I hope MNers from wherever or who are whatever will continue to challenge micro aggressions as well as aggression on any thread.

I don’t want to police language actually, but every challenge, clarification, or fact can provoke thought.

I can honestly say I deeply detest when Americans feel the need to say that they’re from another nation.
Irish-American.....no, you’re from Boston mate, you’re ancestors were from Ireland NOT you.
I don’t like that they can’t be proud to be American.
Fair play to be proud of your ancestors but stop claiming that you’re Irish/Scottish/Italian/Greek when you aren’t.

FelicityPike do you also feat when Brita do the same? For example, Pakistani-British. Let’s say grandparents on both sides emigrated from Pakistan, both parents born in Britain, and their child born to them.

Is it—in your view—possible to be both from/of Pakistan and also be British, in that scenario?

@ShagMeRiggins

FelicityPike do you also feat when Brita do the same? For example, Pakistani-British. Let’s say grandparents on both sides emigrated from Pakistan, both parents born in Britain, and their child born to them.

Is it—in your view—possible to be both from/of Pakistan and also be British, in that scenario?

No. You’re from the country you’re born in and have citizenship IMO. The parents also aren’t Pakistani, they’re first generation British. They have Pakistani heritage.

@ShagMeRiggins

FelicityPike do you also feat when Brita do the same? For example, Pakistani-British. Let’s say grandparents on both sides emigrated from Pakistan, both parents born in Britain, and their child born to them.

Is it—in your view—possible to be both from/of Pakistan and also be British, in that scenario?

I think it's often a nuance of the terminology used.

Most people of Pakistani origin that I know would describe themselves as British (to be fair their non Caucasian ethnic heritage is usually self evident). At a push they'd probably qualify their Britishness by explaining their heritage.

Whereas the Americans I know would describe themselves as 'Irish' even though they're born and bred in America and probably have more English/Italian/whatever heritage than Irish. (Why never English-American?)

I think anyone 4 or 5 generations in that is still identifying themselves by a nationality and culture that they've never/rarely visited can expect to questioned as to their actual connection to that culture.

I come from a part of England that was heavily invaded and populated by vikings. It doesn't make me Danish.

You've all gone mad. Have we seriously got to the point where a poster wants someone's post deleted for disagreeing over the use of the word Santa or disliking the use of haitch? Just take a step back and get some perspective on what true racism is. And at the same time give your heads a wobble and allow the last vestiges of freedom of speech to remain on MN.

More Irish migrated to Britain than to the USA. We have the odd Irish themed pub but no "Irish parts". Why would we, the Irish integrated into British families and vice versa. There isn't much difference between Irish and British people, culturally, ethnically, historically and so on. People identify with the country they are born and raised in more here

lol are you serious? there are cities all over the UK with 'irish parts'. I live in one. yes gentrification has forced a lot of the old irish families to move away but it definitely still exists and local history is full of information about the families, culture and communities from Ireland.

Hi OP

We absolutely delete 'having a paddy' and other anti-Irish sentiment (whether under the radar or outright).
If you see this, please do report it to us. If it hasn't been deleted then there may have been a mistake on our part, and we're happy to revisit the post for another look.

Thank you @LilyMumsnet.

The point of this post was that there is an under the radar not overt racism in all the “that name is horrible How would anyone know how to spell it” “I’ve never known a that wasn’t trouble” and today’s micro aggressions was that to call Santa Claus Santa was horrible.

That’s a really nasty thing to say about something that is completely normal in huge parts of Ireland and the UK.

It wouldn’t be ok if I spoke pejoratively about the pronunciation of any other ethnic or racial group, or nation, so why is it ok that the Irish are told that the way they speak and enunciate letters is wrong and offensive and like nails down a blackboard?