Policy on under the radar racism

[Steroidsandantidepressants]

Hi mnhq.

This isn’t a tatt but it’s come to light on another thread that there are a number of issues around tone and language that feels exclusionary to posters from Ireland, the Celtic nations of the UK and America as well.

It’s things like Halloween being decried and how it’s an American import, turnips, mockery of Irish names and their spellings and categorising them as naughty names.

Also the “have a paddy”. The haitch is horrible, Santa is horrible. And an Americanism.

It contributes to a feeling of not being welcome here. And it is a subtle racism.

Is there any chance you could have a chat in the office and come up with a stronger policy that would take this into account?

Agree wholeheartedly

Following with interest.

As I said on the other thread, I'm a serial reporter of "having a paddy" as are I suspect a few other Irish posters. It is mostly deleted without debate these days which is progress.

The people who use those terms- throw a paddy, haitch/aitch - are not aware of the racism behind them.

Those people are not racist.

There is an area where people perceiving racism does not overlap with actual racism.

@picklemewalnuts

The people who use those terms- throw a paddy, haitch/aitch - are not aware of the racism behind them.

Those people are not racist.

There is an area where people perceiving racism does not overlap with actual racism.

Oh so if someone used a racist term towards a black person, not knowing it was racist, that would be ok and allowed to stand?

I don’t think so.

I’m neither American nor Irish (I’m Scottish) and I happen to completely agree.

@picklemewalnuts

The people who use those terms- throw a paddy, haitch/aitch - are not aware of the racism behind them.

Those people are not racist.

There is an area where people perceiving racism does not overlap with actual racism.

Please stop.

It’s the micro aggressions.

Gotten. Who says that. It’s such a horrible Americanism. No. It’s not.

Totally with you OP. I’ve witnessed this battle for years on MN. I do think it’s better than it was though. What you will get now is a load of goady faux naïveté threads popping up throwing in a casual “paddy” or “Irish twins” comment to get a rise out of us all.

Yup. Someone called Scottish people “indigenous tribes” the other day.

@picklemewalnuts

The people who use those terms- throw a paddy, haitch/aitch - are not aware of the racism behind them.

Those people are not racist.

There is an area where people perceiving racism does not overlap with actual racism.

There is a difference between "oh god, I'd never realised that phrase is racist, I'll stop using it" and "don't be silly, I didn't mean anything by it, my Irish uncle says it (he doesn't), professionally offended, Stephen Fry quote".

I've seen both on here, one more than the other, and I know which one I find racist.

I agree that this kind of thing is bandied about far too much, but can we at at least recognise that most of it is a national stereotype/bigoted/xenophobic rather than racist? Nationality doesn’t equate to race. The two words should retain their meanings as the distinctions are important.

There are both racist comments and bigoted comments about a country or its people perpetuated on the boards, some merely annoying, others downright foul.

@ShagMeRiggins

I agree that this kind of thing is bandied about far too much, but can we at at least recognise that most of it is a national stereotype/bigoted/xenophobic rather than racist? Nationality doesn’t equate to race. The two words should retain their meanings as the distinctions are important.

There are both racist comments and bigoted comments about a country or its people perpetuated on the boards, some merely annoying, others downright foul.

What the Equality Act says about race discrimination The Equality Act 2010 says you must not be discriminated against because of your race.

In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality. For example, you may have Chinese national origins and be living in Britain with a British passport.

Race also covers ethnic and racial groups. This means a group of people who all share the same protected characteristic of ethnicity or race.

A racial group can be made up of two or more distinct racial groups, for example black Britons, British Asians, British Sikhs, British Jews, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers.

You may be discriminated against because of one or more aspects of your race, for example people born in Britain to Jamaican parents could be discriminated against because they are British citizens, or because of their Jamaican national origin

I’m happy to go with the legal definition in the Equality Act tbh.

Well, I'm not going to provide the fodder for the argument. I've read plenty, some I agree, others I don't. This isn't the thread to have the discussion because obviously people will be offended, and offence is not and never is my intention.

Some phrases are not mine to discuss- the throw a paddy one, for example. When I learned the history of it I stopped using it.

I learned about the aitch/haitch being a blue touchpaper discussion in Ireland/N.Ireland earlier this year. I have strong feelings about aitch/haitch which were developed in an entirely different context. I'm no longer able to hold or discuss my opinion because of something I've never been part of or connected to.

And I'm not keen on americanisms. Nothing to do with Americans, just american spellings and grammar used in English. It's pedantic, I know. It's also historically inaccurate- many americanisms are actually older English than our current usage. Growing up with pedantic teachers who clamped down on slang, vulgarisms, local dialects etc, has an impact.

I totally agree with you that these things occur regularly and are born out of a very English-centric viewpoint, and ignorance. They aren't however 'racist' as being American or from Ireland or a Celtic nation within the UK doesn't make you a separate race.

I'd actually say that these examples aren't even an English-centric perspective, but a SE English perspective. Posters who come from Northern England have similar issues around pronunciation and use of dialect words and Halloween traditions, so I can't see how when there are differences even within one country that aren't embedded in any racial distinction, it can be racist?

I agree it's frustrating and of course phrases like 'having a paddy' are different and should be reported and deleted, but I wouldn't conflate this with the use of a Santa vs Father Christmas. I think on any international forum where there is a majority from one regional group, that culture is likely to pervade. It's part of the reason for the country-specific boards. I'm not sure how MN can police general ignorance of customs or dialect outside of someone's sphere of experience? Should no one ever be able to express a preference for using the term Father Christmas, or for disliking Halloween? Are they 'racist' if they do so?

It's rather muddy isn't it?

It’s not really muddy at all. The equality act is pretty clear to me.

@Steroidsandantidepressants

It’s not really muddy at all. The equality act is pretty clear to me.

Then please explain how it applies to the example I've given - to the 'microaggressions' committed against northern English people on these boards in terms of dialect, accent, Halloween customs etc?

Should no one ever be able to express a preference for using the term Father Christmas, or for disliking Halloween? Are they 'racist' if they do so?
Could you also answer this question?

I’m talking about the micro aggressions against those of a different nationality such as the Irish.

I abhor any kind of mockery and putting down of people based on how they speak and the words they use. If there are issues around my mockery of a particular region in England, for example, then I apologise for not taking that on board and will not do so again (I don’t think I have, but I always happy to be corrected). I will also ensure as much as I can to call it out on the boards.

However, this discussion is about racism towards the Irish and the Celtic nations of the uk. Which definitely does come under the equality act.

I would happily support you on a thread about the discrimination and harassment of those from different areas of England if you started such a thread.

Ok then explain exactly how someone disliking Halloween, Santa etc discriminates against you as a person of Celtic origin or meets the definition of the equality act that you've quoted?

@WaltzingBetty

Should no one ever be able to express a preference for using the term Father Christmas, or for disliking Halloween? Are they 'racist' if they do so? Could you also answer this question?

People are of course free to use whatever terms they wish.

That isn’t what I’m saying.

What I’m saying is that statements such as “using Santa is horrible” is racist and should be deleted.

Similarly, comments such as “that’s a horrible name why give your child that nsme” or “I never knew a that wasn’t trouble” or “Halloween is a horrible American import” and so on and so on are racist and should be deleted.

I feel these kind of micro aggressions are slipping under MNHQ radar at the moment and I would like to see that changed.

"haitch/aitch" what is that?

whilst your at it can we ban using moron?cretin?

Also following with interest coming from the santa /father Christmas discussion.

There is definitely a nasty undercurrent that I have noticed.

The treatment creates a hostile environment for those of Irish or Celtic nations or American extraction. .

That meets the definition.

I would happily support you on a thread about the discrimination and harassment of those from different areas of England if you started such a thread.

You're missing the point. Which is that several of the examples you've given are not uniquely Irish/Scottish etc. So aren't necessarily representative of a'national culture'

And expressing a dislike for something that is not a racial or cultural characteristic, is not racism. I understand why the pervading SE English perspective is frustrating, but I don't think hijacking terminology that doesn't apply is helpful.

@Samcro

"haitch/aitch" what is that?

whilst your at it can we ban using moron?cretin?

I don’t think I’ve ever used those terms @Samcro but yes they should also be delete worthy.

The point is exactly as @BillywigSting says. It’s an undercurrent. It’s not overt. It’s under the radar and can be explained away. With a wide eyed innocent look. But it’s still there.