Policy on under the radar racism

[Steroidsandantidepressants]

Hi mnhq.

This isn’t a tatt but it’s come to light on another thread that there are a number of issues around tone and language that feels exclusionary to posters from Ireland, the Celtic nations of the UK and America as well.

It’s things like Halloween being decried and how it’s an American import, turnips, mockery of Irish names and their spellings and categorising them as naughty names.

Also the “have a paddy”. The haitch is horrible, Santa is horrible. And an Americanism.

It contributes to a feeling of not being welcome here. And it is a subtle racism.

Is there any chance you could have a chat in the office and come up with a stronger policy that would take this into account?

If you look at the history of English attitudes toward the Irish, it's not hard to consider these things racist. Throughout the colonial era, the Irish were seen as not quite as 'savage' as Africans but not civilised enough to be proper white Europeans either. There is a lot of eye-opening scholarship on this. It explains a lot about ongoing bigotry today.

I come from a very Irish part of the US originally and I've been shocked many times on MN by anti-Irish and ignorant posts. If you said these things there, wow, you'd be getting an earful. I completely agree with you OP.

What I’m saying is that statements such as “using Santa is horrible” is racist and should be deleted.

Really? so expressing a personal opinion about a word that doesn't represent any specific ethnicity or cultural group is racist?

@WaltzingBetty

I would happily support you on a thread about the discrimination and harassment of those from different areas of England if you started such a thread.

You're missing the point. Which is that several of the examples you've given are not uniquely Irish/Scottish etc. So aren't necessarily representative of a'national culture'

And expressing a dislike for something that is not a racial or cultural characteristic, is not racism. I understand why the pervading SE English perspective is frustrating, but I don't think hijacking terminology that doesn't apply is helpful.

It’s not just expressing a dislike. It’s way more than that. Even on the most recent thread.

It is micro aggressions and it’s nasty and I would like mnhq to address it.

Wide eyed innocent goady shit

Tat is exactly what it is.

Can I ask about Halloween? Because I dislike the full on houses decorated with witches/ skeletons/ scary stuff,shops full of it,children trick or treating.Actually not so much the trick or treating. When I was a child ( southern England and I'm 60) we would have parties ,bobbing for apples,toffee apples,carved swedes ( how? How did we do it,they are like rock...) but not all the dressing up witchy/ horror stuff.And it wasn't a big holiday with all the build up.
I'd looked on that as an American import,via TV.

Is that what Scotland/Wales/NI/ other UK regions have always done?

@WaltzingBetty

What I’m saying is that statements such as “using Santa is horrible” is racist and should be deleted.

Really? so expressing a personal opinion about a word that doesn't represent any specific ethnicity or cultural group is racist?

Also please explain how the name for a mythical figure based on a 4th century Greek bishop is part of Celtic culture?

We always dressed as witches and went guising.

We had black bin bags and plastic masks that nipped your faces.

And we had hollowed out turnips with a candle in them (my poor mother).

We didn’t decorate the houses because I don’t think that stuff was available then but we definitely went round and did a turn for money/sweets/monkey nuts.

We were always off on half term at Halloween as well. And we definitely did not celebrate bonfire night.

Santa Claus originated from the Dutch and was Americanised. I'm struggling to see how disliking the term is racism to people from Celtic nations?

@Steroidsandantidepressants

We always dressed as witches and went guising.

We had black bin bags and plastic masks that nipped your faces.

And we had hollowed out turnips with a candle in them (my poor mother).

We didn’t decorate the houses because I don’t think that stuff was available then but we definitely went round and did a turn for money/sweets/monkey nuts.

We were always off on half term at Halloween as well. And we definitely did not celebrate bonfire night.

I did all of that growing up in Yorkshire. It isn't uniquely Scottish/Irish

People who choose not to do those things or who sneer are doing those things aren't racist. They just like different things

As I said, it’s not just the Santa terminology. It’s many other things as well, as I have explained.

It's hard for people to understand the concept of micro-aggressions because we are so used to looking at racism from the perspective of the speaker, what their intention is.

If we look at racism from the perspective of people affected by it, it becomes easier to see how constant little comments add up to something more.

I don't personally find anti-Americanism racist as such, more xenophobic and bigoted. But it's still annoying, all the references to 'horrible American term' 'horrible American custom' etc.

@dreamingbohemian

It's hard for people to understand the concept of micro-aggressions because we are so used to looking at racism from the perspective of the speaker, what their intention is.

If we look at racism from the perspective of people affected by it, it becomes easier to see how constant little comments add up to something more.

I don't personally find anti-Americanism racist as such, more xenophobic and bigoted. But it's still annoying, all the references to 'horrible American term' 'horrible American custom' etc.

I agree that these terms are unpleasant and bigoted. I'm pretty sure if those comments were reported (as they should be) MNHQ would delete them.

What I disagree about is that disliking (even very vigorously) customs and terminology that aren't representative of a culture or nationality is racism under the equality act. Unpleasant and ignorant, yes. A breach of the EA, no.

But when the ignorance relates,to terms used in a specific culture or names from a. Specific country then it is racism as per EA.

and the micro aggressions are definitely here on mumsnet. On a daily basis.

I knew about guising.So from what you say it sounds as if what I dislike about halloween isn't related to what you did. As I said,we did halloween too, not like you exactly,but we did it.
It does feel like longstanding varied British celebrations being altered by drift from America.And that's my culture being altered by the impact of another culture.
Is it racist not to like that? ( I don't like the culture in America around guns either,is that racist?)
It may be age is my problem though,I will text my brother in law ( American south) and ask him what they did at halloween when he was growing up.
I think comments on Haitch/ aitch and Santa/Father Christmas ( along with what you call your grandparents) have a classist basis in some cases.

You want a rule similar to the " no personal attacks" rule,so no saying "Santa/Haitch is horrible" ,but you should still be able to talk about who uses which words and when and where - that is interesting.
I say Father Christmas - I thought that was an age thing,I didn't realise there was a regional variation in what people said,now I do!

@Steroidsandantidepressants

But when the ignorance relates,to terms used in a specific culture or names from a. Specific country then it is racism as per EA.

and the micro aggressions are definitely here on mumsnet. On a daily basis.

But that's my point. Many of the examples you've given don't relate to a specific culture or country. Halloween, Santa Claus etc are ubiquitous in many regions regardless of nationality so the EA doesn't apply.

We've agreed that terms like 'paddy' are different and are usually deleted by MNHQin the way that other racist comments would be. But claiming racism against terms like Santa Claus which are not culturally related to the Celtic nations (though it may be widely used) is just bizarre.

We always dressed as witches and went guising.

We had black bin bags and plastic masks that nipped your faces.

And we had hollowed out turnips with a candle in them (my poor mother)

This is part of English culture too.

Hi - just popping in to say that as ever, if you see a post that you think breaks our guidelines, just drop us a line at: [email protected] and we'll be happy to take a look.

^ That’s a “no” then OP

The fact that we are talking about perceived micro aggressions of alleged racism is great though. It means we have agreed that some terms are clearly unacceptable, will get you prosecuted in the real world, and banned for life from here.

Halloween, names for a red clad male home Invader, pronouncing the eighth letter is not the be all and end all. Equally if I've known three people with an Irish or African or outer Mongolian name and they have all been bad'uns am I wrong to state it? Equally if I have known three bad'uns with nice English names an I forbidden to say it?

@soniamumsnet I do. Always. And I have. And the posts responding to the racist post have been deleted but not the faux innocent wide eyed racist post.

In addition. Can you tell me why posts that are anti Irish are allowed to stay? For example, the phrase “having a paddy”?

This thread is really interesting. I'm half Irish but grew up in the North of England and definitely rile against the snobbery on these boards...

But I'm not sure that most of your examples are racist since they apply equally (in my experience) to northern English and Irish people.

Having a 'paddy's is clearly racist. But pronouncing H as 'Haitch', celebrating Halloween, and the term Santa are all common throughout the north of England too.

I think it's all down to tone. A discussion on what countries or regions use which term can be really interesting. But there is often a sneering tone to some comments. Irish, Scottish and American terms all definitely tend to code as lower class on here, and thus Are Bad. I do think many of the posts stray into racism but I do appreciate that some are hard for mnhq to police as we are of course allowed to have opinions.

Posts that I would've hardly noticed at first do offend me now because of the sheer volume as well as the individual post.

if someone suggesting Halloween is an American import is racism that you find distressing and want removed then you are going to have a tough and disappointing time living in a western democracy.

American isn't even a race.

As for the Haitch thing I pronounce it that way, but not because of my genetic origins. I wasn't even aware that people thought it had genetic origins. Is there a link to a paper?

If you look at the history of English attitudes toward the Irish, it's not hard to consider these things racist. Throughout the colonial era, the Irish were seen as not quite as 'savage' as Africans but not civilised enough to be proper white Europeans either. There is a lot of eye-opening scholarship on this. It explains a lot about ongoing bigotry today.

I'm not sure most Irish historians would agree with this. Yours is very much an American perspective on historical relations between Irish and English people, who often got along OK and certainly intermarried often. Many English people have some Irish ancestry and vice versa

I come from a very Irish part of the US originally and I've been shocked many times on MN by anti-Irish and ignorant posts. If you said these things there, wow, you'd be getting an earful. I completely agree with you OP.

Or agree that the US has "Irish parts" or that Americans, by nationality and upbringing, can be "Irish"