'Liberal Feminism' subtopic

[PersonFrom2045]

Hi @MNHQ

Following on from this AIBU thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3804680-To-think-mumsnet-needs-a-separate-Gender-section?

There was limited interest in a 'separate Gender section' but some agreement that a 'Liberal Feminism' topic might be a good thing.

The idea of this would be to create a subtopic within FWR that was free of TWAW debate, without affecting any of the existing FWR topics where TWAW debate features heavily.

I'm aware you are reducing the number of topics at the moment rather than adding to them, but I thought it was worth floating the idea.

No-one will post on it. If there aren't threads about feminism on the existing board that people want to discuss, then start some. I'd love to see a mix too, but not because of what's already there, but because it's so dull to see this raised again and again without anyone actually trying to do the simplest thing of posting more. It's not a magazine, it's user generated content.

Problem is, people will never be happy because there will always be challenge when women as a class aren't centred and 3rd wave feminism is pretty challengable on that score. And then we go round again about nasty feminists.

You may be right, AyeRobot but I think the present focus does put people off starting threads because there's a fair chance they will come round to discussing trans issues.

There was Human Rights too, for all the egalitarians who didn't like the focus on women in the feminist topics, full stop.
That didn't get too busy either, despite all the nastiness at the time

I think some people are intimidated to start posts there.... I would be anyway and I’m reasonably robust. I just feel it’s very “ academic” and my views are just my views ( I haven’t got a piece of research or statistic to support every view I have). Another reason I don’t venture in there much is the “ transphobic” reputation it has. Whether it is or isn’t transphobic it’s certainly preoccupied with that subject beyond what I consider to be proportionate levels and I don’t want to be lumped in with that.

Human Rights is a very broad-focus topic!

There was Human Rights too, for all the egalitarians who didn't like the focus on women in the feminist topics, full stop.

You're absolutely right! I'd forgotten that! And that one's a tumbleweed now?

Unfortunately, threads like the AIBU linked to above will be joined by some posters who just want feminists to stop talking about certain issues/all issues. There have always been people who would like to see the FWR board shut down completely.

I just feel it’s very “ academic” and my views are just my views

I might be wrong but from lurking I get the impression FWR has a higher proportion of academics than other areas of MN (excluding the Common Room) and I think trans issues are far more prominent in academia than they are in, say, the corporate world. People with an academic background are used to a robust style of debate, and that can be intimidating for people (like me) who aren't accustomed to that.

I hope that doesn't sound as though I'm criticising FWR on the grounds of its demographic or suggesting the academics should 'dumb down'. I don't mean that at all - I'm simply advocating a space for people whose feminist views aren't centred on trans issues so they don't feel they have to defend themselves at every turn.

Debate is a whole other issue and I'm not convinced that FWR is the right place for that at the moment given that it has become a gathering point for a specific approach

That's a reasonable point, since the vast majority of people on FWR are basically in agreement. But is there anywhere at all where gender ideology is being freely debated, with people representing both sides? I don't think there is. There's only #nodebate and those resisting #nodebate.

Still think it's a sledge hammer to crack a nut.
Start a thread, specify you are coming at this from a non GC non academic perspective.
It would work as well as any other method, I think.
I do get the intimidation thing, I'm not too articulate myself, but fuck it.

I interact with plenty of “non-academic” types on FWR. And women in various circumstances wherein female-only spaces really matter.

Including women who grew up poor (me), women who are poor, survivors of abuse, women living with disabilities, women whose children face challenges, one poster who is living in her car currently and posting when she can.

What is there to be intimidated about. Just set up a burner email so an intern can’t dox you. Done.

That said - I fully support a Liberal Feminism board. I may not agree with libfems on much but I respect their right to discuss whatever, in a space they like. If FWR doesn’t work for them, maybe LF would?

I've hidden the main feminism board from Active and think others may have too. I'd like an alternative place.

@Divebar

Feminist chat was started for exactly the reason you state.

The people who were worried about not being educated or academic enough and who asked for the subtopic because the academic posters were too scary never posted.

A new subtopic will go exactly the same way, no doubt.

Why doesn't this happen on other topics?

At some point, it really does look like just trying to shut women up.

I think a LF board could work though.

It’s not a split between academics / and us hoi polloi which is being solved for.

Many academics publicly despise MN feminism. Many hoi polette like it.

There is a genuine ideological split, which would be catered for. Having said that, moderators are over it and I can understand if it is rejected.

mods may well be* over it, that is

Yes, I'd also understand if it's rejected for the reasons you say, 2B. I thought it was worth asking, though, if only because there seemed to be some (rare) consensus between posters on both sides of the GC issue that it might be a good idea.

But is there anywhere at all where gender ideology is being freely debated, with people representing both sides? I don't think there is.

I don't think there is, either, and I don't think a LibFem board would become that place. I understand that GC feminists don't think it's possible to discuss feminist topics without reference to gender ideology, and possibly see any discussion which avoids this as some kind of 'feminism lite'. But there are posters out there (I think) who would like to have those discussions and I would see a LibFem board as a place for them.

Oh definitely worth asking OP, and I cannot see a downside.

You’d probably call me GC I (guess) but personally I’d be happy never to discuss gender / trans again. But while shelters and services are being TWAW-ed, causing vulnerable women to self-exclude (some with children) I have to talk about it. It is hurting women.

We need a space where women get it and care, and FWR is that space.

But for those women who think TWAW, or are unbothered, I can see why FWR might not resonate. So having a LF board might meet a need.

There are a couple of different things going on here.

There are, and always have been, people who want to shut the feminist board down. For whatever reason, they don't like what the women are saying and want them to stop.

One of the ways to do that is to complain that there are too many trans threads and it puts people off.

Coupled with that, I'm sure it does genuinely put some people off (not the people I'm talking about above).

Another way to try and shut it down is to complain there is no debate. But, as blistory points out, "I'm not so sure that the trans discussions on FWR are a debate and seem to be more of a fact finding, tactical approach to oppose transactivisim/provide safeguarding/protect women's rights.".

If someone does want to debate, as evidenced on the Center Parcs thread, the response is well-informed and robust.

So I think you've got two factions complaining. Those who would genuinely like to see a more liberal feminist board, and those who just want to shut down the current board. Of course, that will become quite transparent, if there was another board, by who becomes a regular poster.

As I said on the other thread, I personally would have zero objection to another feminist board. The more the merrier. Misogyny is misogyny. It comes in all shapes and sizes.

And, personally, I could quite easily refrain from any gender identity remarks.

There are, and always have been, people who want to shut the feminist board down. For whatever reason, they don't like what the women are saying and want them to stop

I don’t spend very much time on the feminist board so don’t know the answer to this - how do you identify the a person who wants to shut it down? What is the modus operandi? I’ve obviously seen some robust debate which is not necessarily civil or respectful from either side. I personally don’t want to shut it down I just don’t go there much.

For the record, I would hate to see the FWR boards shut down, even though I don't feel they cater very well for me at present.

No response from @MNHQ to this idea so I'm guessing a LibFem section isn't something they have an appetite for (which I can understand).

It can take a long time to get a response, Person. You can report your OP to make sure they have seen it.

While you are waiting post your threads with LibFem in the title maybe?
Maybe in one of the dormant boards that people haven't hidden. See who turns up. If it takes off I'm sure MNHQ will make a section.

*There was limited interest in a 'separate Gender section' but some agreement that a 'Liberal Feminism' topic might be a good thing.

The idea of this would be to create a subtopic within FWR that was free of TWAW debate, without affecting any of the existing FWR topics where TWAW debate features heavily*

OP I’m confused as to why something that isn’t about trans would necessarily be about, or embody the perspectives of, liberal feminism.

Thanks for the suggestion, LangClegsInSpace - I'll give it another day or so and do that if they don't respond.

7Days I will give that some thought - I'm wary of unintentionally starting a bunfight!

YetAnotherSpartacus 'Liberal Feminism' was suggested by a poster on the AIBU thread as being an appropriate title to attract the type of discussion that was being posited as a reason for a separate board - I imagine because it doesn't have the cast-in-stone set of principles that characterise some other types of feminism. I am far from an expert on the different branches of feminism, so if anyone can suggest a more suitable title, please do.

Well, Mumsnet will do what it wants, of course. For what it's worth, as posted on the other thread, this is what I think:

'What I really think, is that most people don't know much about the difference between different strands of feminism and that separating the MN Feminist chat board into different factions - so overtly implying that anyone who doesn't know enough about academic feminism to identify which 'camp' they belong in should not be posting - would be massively, massively, off-putting and detrimental to people's ability and interest in taking part in any discussion on any topic they perceive as having a possible feminist angle. It would be an act of vandalism and a very poor business decision.'

Honestly, if people want to chat about feminist issues without engaging with the people who usually frequent the feminism boards, why don't they just post their threads in Chat?