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'Liberal Feminism' subtopic

93 replies

PersonFrom2045 · 27/01/2020 18:21

Hi @MNHQ

Following on from this AIBU thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3804680-To-think-mumsnet-needs-a-separate-Gender-section?

There was limited interest in a 'separate Gender section' but some agreement that a 'Liberal Feminism' topic might be a good thing.

The idea of this would be to create a subtopic within FWR that was free of TWAW debate, without affecting any of the existing FWR topics where TWAW debate features heavily.

I'm aware you are reducing the number of topics at the moment rather than adding to them, but I thought it was worth floating the idea.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 28/01/2020 18:31

What purpose does having an echo chamber serve?

It doesn't resolve anything where there is disagreement. It doesn't add anything to a debate either.

Don't get why it helps anyone.

RuffleCrow · 28/01/2020 18:36

I guess there's the danger MN might close fwr and tell us to be grateful theres a liberal feminism topic.

Datun · 28/01/2020 18:42

I don’t spend very much time on the feminist board so don’t know the answer to this - how do you identify the a person who wants to shut it down?

It's not hard. Seriously. Also getting threads shutdown has become a refined bit of manipulation that is easily identifiable, long before it happens.

Honestly, if people want to chat about feminist issues without engaging with the people who usually frequent the feminism boards, why don't they just post their threads in Chat?

There is that of course. Chat could always be used.

I don't think it's so much that people don't want to interact with the feminists on FWR, it's that they don't want identity politics to be a part of the discussion.

Many women are not quite sure how this can be done, as it directly undermines the basic premise of feminism, but I'd be interested to see what happens.

DioneTheDiabolist · 28/01/2020 18:50

OP, this has been proposed in the past because before Trans became a threat, the biggest threat to women and feminism, according to FWR was Libfems.

lottiegarbanzo · 28/01/2020 19:27

Thinking practically though, I just don't see how this would work.

'Splitting' topics serves the interests of the conoisseurs, the people who know exactly which camp they prefer.

For most of us, we don't want an extra barrier to participation erected around the feminism section - that of needing to work out in which sub-section our comment belongs, or more often, what form of words is going to be acceptable on the particular sub-section the thread we're reading happens to sit within.

Most often, I engage with threads I see on 'active'. If I have something to say, I comment. That's as sectarian as I, don't, go.

PersonFrom2045 · 29/01/2020 07:20

I see what you're saying, Lottie but there are already subsections within FWR, and in fact most topics on MN. MN seem to have been trying to reduce these by 'rolling' one section into another, but if you read the comments that are added when that's proposed, they're rarely in favour even if the subtopic isn't much used. In other words, regular Mnetters seem to be comfortable with subtopics.

OP posts:
RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 29/01/2020 07:32

an extra barrier to participation erected around the feminism section - that of needing to work out in which sub-section our comment belongs, or more often, what form of words is going to be acceptable on the particular sub-section the thread we're reading happens to sit within

This and the potential lack of debate is what concerns me

But maybe a trial could be arranged

lottiegarbanzo · 29/01/2020 11:42

I think you're conflating two different groups of users there PersonFrom2045 to make a point that doesn't bear scrutiny. Your point that 'lumping' sections together attracts vocal opposition, is completely consistent with my suggestion that 'splitters' are the connoisseurs who use that section a lot, enter it directly rather than via 'active' and have a vested interest in its structure.

That has nothing to do with 'regular Mumsnetters', if by those we mean the people who read and post across the site and may have preferences but have no strong section allegiance.

So my point stands that 'regular Mumsnetters' are likely to be one of oblivious, confused or discouraged, if faced with a new, specialist section within FWR.

We've all been oblivious to the fact that an active post wasn't in AIBU and accidentally posted as if it was, haven't we? (I have).

Many of us have been discouraged from responding to a thread in 'active', once we notice it's in FWR rather than Chat, because we perceive 'serious discussion requiring academic levels of discourse', rather than 'everyday chat that makes no particular demands upon me'. (I have). Titles declaring the type of feminism allowed, rather than the much friendlier 'feminism chat' will exacerbate this effect.

Examples of people posting erroneously in one section because they're confused about what the title means, include people posting in 'conception' about how madly fertile they are. Things like that happen and some people care far less about their casual incursion than others.

There is no sub-section I'm aware of on MN that has its own set of formal posting rules, in addition to the Talk Guidelines. Policing the TGs and kicking out trolls is literally a full-time job for multiple staff already.

It is true that many sections have a strongly specific raison d'etre and self-police accordingly. There are also regular threads with very cliquey titles. What I can't think of is an example of a section being split into two sub-sections that the casual user can't make sense of fairly easily, without needing to be educated, in quite a formal sense and one that probably relies on knowledge obtained outwith the cliquey confines of MN.

You know pretty quickly whether you fit into a 'conception post-40' thread, or a 'we're all obsessed with whatever TV programme', or 'we've been chatting aimlessly together since 2011' one. But needing to identify what sort of feminist I am before feeling comfortable posting in the 'feminism chat' section? That's not 'chat' that's 'feminist theory' - and there's already a sub-section for that.

So I'm making two opposite points, both of which are true - because different MN users behave differently.

  1. Casual but confident users who mostly respond to threads in 'active' won't know or care what the 'house rules' of a particular feminist chat sub-section is, they'll jump in with whatever wording and content they please, if they find the topic interesting.

  2. Casual but cautious users, lurkers, who pay attention to section headings, will be put off posting and take far longer to de-lurk, if they ever get that far at all and aren't quickly and permanently put off by overt sectarianism.

And finally, as I said on the other thread, how long before someone, in all innocence, in a discussion about threats to women's rights and safety, mentions self-ID as one factor? Knowledge of 'trans issues' and self-ID is out there, because they are real things in the world. That knowledge isn't exclusive to the MN FWR board. MN does not have the power to put the genie of that reality back in its bottle. Insisting on a whole board full of discussion of FWR, that excludes mention of one threat to women's rights and safety, is flat-earther thinking.

So, where is the 'flat earth' section? Where is the 'promoting the march of economic progress - no you may not mention climate change' section? Where are the party-specific sub-sections in politics and news?

As an occasional reader and far less frequent poster there, I do recognise that there is something of a siege mentality in Feminism Chat. But also that that is because the section itself is literally under siege. It is true that it is an intensified version of what happens in the rest of the world, not a microcosm. That is because it's one of the only places on the internet where the threat to women's rights and safety of trans-activism may be discussed - so much of that, much bigger discussion, happens here. Also because of the same old, same old troll-luring properties of women talking amongst themsleves on issues that pertain to power in the world. But intensified because of the preceding point.

My answer to 'what to do' about that, is simply for MN to recognise and perhaps drop in to explain occasionally, that the proliferation of 'trans threads' is because MN's policy on free-speech is unusual amongst internet discussion forums, so other people interested in that topic happen to come here to discuss it. People not interested in those threads shouldn't 'misread' their proliferation as changing the focus of the FC section as a whole and should just get on with posting their own threads on topics that interest them.

That's a very long post for someone whose ultimate view is 'do what you want, give LibFem or whatever a go if it makes a few people happy, I don't really care (even though my prediction is it will be tumbleweed and if, for a while it isn't, it will soon fail)'. I'm looking at the issue more from a problem-solving perspective than an ideological one.

PersonFrom2045 · 29/01/2020 17:16

That's a really insightful post, Lottie.

Yes, I agree it's easy to post on something on active without noticing what topic it's in - I've committed the faux pas of telling some in Chat they are BU more than once.

I also agree 'Feminism Chat' is friendlier- sounding than 'Liberal Feminism' (or any other title defining a branch of feminism). However, I don't think anyone has suggested 'Feminism Chat' should be renamed, so it would still present an accessible topic name to cautious lurkers.

Lurkers come in many forms - the ultra cautious lurker who lurks for weeks would probably 'suss out' the different boards by following them over a period of time, before venturing to post. Assuming they are interested in feminism, they might lurk and agree wholeheartedly with the mainly GC views on the board, but if that isn't their perspective, they might be deterred from posting in 'feminism' altogether

People who are new to the site but confident to pitch in without lurking would probably post on anything of interest anyway, based on thread title, without reference to topic.

And finally, I do think a hypothetical LibFem board would have to rely on the same good faith/self regulation/avoidance of goadiness that other topics rely on, to keep discussions 'on topic' and as with any thread in any topic, use the existing moderation system to report any abusive posts that were clearly just there to start a bun-fight.

Anyway, the AIBU thread that inspired this is full now - the idea is out there, so I will leave it at that. Thanks to everyone who took the time to offer opinions and insight.

OP posts:
Babdoc · 29/01/2020 17:29

I’m struggling a bit with the terminology. How is it possible to claim to be a feminist of any description, if you’re not gender critical?
Seriously, is there a subgroup of feminists who are absolutely fine with sexist stereotypes? And if so, how do they resolve the cognitive dissonance?

GCAcademic · 29/01/2020 17:37

Babdoc - if my students are anything to go by, they re-label various modes of oppression as “empowering”. Patriarchy solved!

Pottytrainingwoes · 29/01/2020 18:31

Not wanting to have to discuss GC views on every. Single. Thread does not =

  • not knowing what a women is
  • condoning sexist stereotypes
  • not caring about women
  • not being gender critical

Most of the time, from my perspective atleast, it just means you’re a bit bored of the overwhelming focus and want to discuss other parts of feminism without it always coming back to TWANW.

Not sure why some people are finding that so hard to understand.

The board doesn’t need to be called LibFem either or non-GC, maybe just ‘general feminism’ or anything, just a space away from the all consuming ness of it all, but where people can still engage in feminism and activism.

theflushedzebra · 29/01/2020 18:39

I know, Babdoc, it's mystifying.

Time was - ver generally - Radfem meant fight for women's rights as a class, by breaking down the patriarchy.

LibFem - fight for women's rights as individuals within the patriarchy.

In no way were either of those branches of feminism in it for the males - both branches fought for the liberation of women.

Now libfem and intersectional feminism have been totally hijacked by something I don't even recognise as feminism, but is more like anti-feminism - sex work is work,... women aren't oppressed because of their biology, reproductive role, or gender role imposed on them... porn is empowering... women are violent too.... and people born male can be women, but are even more oppressed than women.... these are the types of rhetoric that men's rights activists come up with.

And the second wave feminists, who fought for, and gained all the rights that young woke women take for granted - are now shouted down as "old white feminists" or Terfs or Swerfs - or right wing bigots, and told to die in a fire.

You really couldn't make it up.

theflushedzebra · 29/01/2020 18:46

And when I say "in it for the males" I don't just mean the ones who identify as women, I mean the patriarchy, and it's incumbent sexist stereotypes/gender roles.

LoveIsLovely · 29/01/2020 18:47

@Pottytrainingwoes So just don't answer the posts that bring up those topics?

Take the thread in another direction. If other women are interested, they will respond to you.

Datun · 29/01/2020 19:08

Pottytrainingwoes

Btw, there are, frequently, threads unconnected to the conflict of rights with the trans ideology. There is one, for instance, about a new practice of men breastfeeding from their wives, to 'cure HIV'. Also 'vocal fry', 'Marry your rapist in Turkey', etc.

It changes and shifts all the time. Earlier on the five threads on the first page were unconnected to gender politics. Another day, they will all be about it.

Sometimes the threads aren't about it at all, but someone, as an aside, might say something gender critical.

You might be surprised, if you start a thread, about something specific.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 29/01/2020 20:45

Nah...i dont rate ‘general feminism’ as a title, cos feminism chat is general feminism already

I am struggling to think of one though 😀

theflushedzebra · 29/01/2020 21:05

If they do add a Liberal Feminism board, please can Feminism Chat revert back to Feminism/Women's Rights?

DesireesChild · 30/01/2020 00:21

I think it's a pretty awful idea. There is already Feminist Support, Feminist Theory, Feminist Book Club, and Feminist Activism which almost no- one posts on.

Feminist chat was not designed to be solely for radical feminists. If liberal feminists want to post there they have every right to do so and should do so.

Does anyone fall into exactly 1 camp? I'm not on board with most of the "gender critical" stuff but on "sex work is work" stuff I agree with radical feminists.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 30/01/2020 04:51

The problem with designating a section of the forum Liberal Feminism is, I think, that it would invite advocates of porn and prostitution under the guise of being choose your choice commercially branded feminism.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 30/01/2020 07:26

Does anyone fall into exactly 1 camp

I wouldn’t have thought many people do

lottiegarbanzo · 30/01/2020 08:11

Ha ha. Maybe people who want 'general / other / let's not get hung up on other people's identity politics - feminst chat' should just get on with chatting, in Feminist Chat... and see what happens.

I know there have been some examples of threads not going the way posters wanted but my overwhelming impression of this whole discussion is that it has come from lurkers - whose wish is to read material of interest to them and not to post at all.

MoleSmokes · 30/01/2020 12:12

Thank you for your thoughtful post lottiegarbanzo yesterday - it rings a lot of bells with me.

Your suggestion that most of the complaints are coming from "lurkers" chimes with the fact that many people on the AIBU thread were saying things like, "I never post there - but I want it to change", "I hide the whole Board - but I want it to change", etc.

I have only been around on Mumsnet for about a year. Someone had recommended that I looked at "Feminism Women's Rights" on Mumsnet. There isn't anything officially called "FWR" or "Feminism Women's Rights" but there were several "Feminism" Boards so I had a look at them. Most of them were very quiet but "Feminist Chat" seemed busier.

"Feminist Chat" was the very last one that I expected to be about Feminism and Women's Rights - the "Chat" bit made me think it was going to be full of memes. Thank goodness it is not. There is more than enough of that elsewhere on the internet. Later I noticed that the URL is "Talk/womens_rights/" so I knew that I had found the Board that had been recommended to me - even if the name seemed odd.

I lurked for a few months before I bothered to join and I learned a lot.

One thing I learned was that a bizarre phenomenon that I had assumed (honestly!) had been dreamed up by the Tabloid Press and Lads Mags was actually a "thing", was seriously considered to be a form of Feminism: "Third Wave Feminism". It was only then that I understood why some women on Social Media had in their bio "Feminist. Not the fun kind".

"Feminist Chat" is still functioning as a "Feminism Women's Rights" Board. I would be all for restoring the name except that it would probably now invite interminable "TWAW" disruptions.

I do not think it makes sense to create yet another Feminism Board, for the reasons detailed by lottiegarbanzo yesterday and the concerns mentioned by TheBewildernessisWeetabix above.

However, if that happened then, as "`Feminism Women's Rights" has been trivialised by renaming it "Feminist Chat", the new Board should not be dignified by calling it "Liberal Feminism", but should be equally trivialised by calling it "Fun Feminism".

The problem is that, whatever a proposed new board was called, Mumsnet (a Parenting Forum) would be hosting a board that explicitly welcomes those who advocate that "Sex Work is Work". Promoting porn on a Parenting Forum is surely going to alienate Advertisers rather more than the occasional unsubstantiated allegation of "transphobia"?

One of the useful things about the AIBU thread was that several people, who had never visited FWR because they been led to believe that bullying ran rife, were pleasantly surprised by the tenor of the discussion and had decided to visit and see for themselves Smile

Datun · 30/01/2020 12:19

One of the useful things about the AIBU thread was that several people, who had never visited FWR because they been led to believe that bullying ran rife, were pleasantly surprised by the tenor of the discussion and had decided to visit and see for themselves smile

Indeed. And it happens a lot. When this issue comes up, you will get many posters on FWR saying I never used to bother, but then I looked and now I can't keep away.

I've never seen people say it the other way round, unless goading. I also don't understand why people get so annoyed about the board. It's an active annoyance, not indifference.

Cohle · 30/01/2020 13:19

One of the useful things about the AIBU thread was that several people, who had never visited FWR because they been led to believe that bullying ran rife, were pleasantly surprised by the tenor of the discussion

Really? I don't think we can have read the same thread.