“Racism” towards the Irish on here

[Giantbanger]

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

We make the ruling classes uncomfortable because we've never believed their shite and having been in the thick of the receiving end, have a different narrative. Bloody criminals the lot of them.

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists

Exactly.

Similar to the spate of disgustingly racist posts against black people a month or so ago, most disguised as an incident that supposedly happened then 'but oh, was I/my child/my DH/my friend racist for saying so n so...?'

MN response to complaints was that posts/threads should stand as racism needs to be "discussed robustly".

As if people piling in scoffing at racism, minimising experiences of it, and telling those who have experienced it what is and isn't racist, amounts to anything but racist pisstaking.

Irish threads in similar vein. The Paddy thread the other day - if an Irish person feels insulted by being described as that then they know why - its not for anybody else to come along and minimise her reasons for feeling as she does, nor state what is and isn't offensive, then come up with convoluted. reasons as to why it isn't offensive.

I get that there are people who take pleasure in being racist. Likely people who'd be shit scared to be openly that way in real life, so anonymity suits them.

But MN need to take down these posts immediately, as those posters crave an audience, followed by a nasty troublesome discussion thread. Racists shouldn't be given the satisfaction of that.

Race awareness training would be a good thing.

There’s just been a post on anither thread where I said turnip and was questioned don’t i mean a swede. No. I don’t. I mean a turnip. It’s a turnip here.

That’s the sort of low level ignorance that gets me. I know they have a different name in other places, so why don’t other people?

There was a post on that thread (actually related posts) where some goady fucker claimed that loads of Irish people wished they were British anyway, so what was the problem?

Somebody responded that was utter bullshit, to which they doubled down and said they personally knew several people. Which was a total lie, cos they were being a goady fucker on the Internet and that scenario doesn't exist, not even in an alternate Universe in fucking Star Trek.

I mean that thread was appalling. But apparently this thread doesn't warrant much response either.

Maybe we should head back to good ol boards.ie, lads?

Craic mummy:
I totally agree and have done and did ask too.
I am just trying to explain away some of the (my) ignorance! It is of course no excuse.

I reported that tread . I also emailed MNHQ detailing why I found it highly offensive and lacking in moderation and fairness, and how the OP on it needed to be reigned in and I also suggested that MN HQ should be ashamed of their lack of cultural sensitivity and understanding.
I don't usually hop on those kids of treads and I have been a MM used for more than 12 years so have seen it all before. I live in Ireland but travel to the UK regularly, I m not particularly nationalistic but yesterday's ignorance really upset me. I explained this to MN. I got the standard 'op was previously banned' response .

So frustrating. I agree there s a level of misunderstanding here, I don't really want to believe it s deliberate but I think rather people don't know or understand the complex history and just how recent it still is for people.
But I do agree that moderators on MN need to be more aware.
I had to smile at the comment 'most Irish want to be english' especially considering we had a exaggerated delay getting a renewal of my daughter's passport last year, why.... well because of brexit anyone in the UK with any Irish links, was claiming heritage and getting an Irish passport - there were numerous treads on here about it.

And to answer the final statement - All great Irish writers were Irish, not British.

I've just got annoyed about Halloween being adjudged to be an American import. That's another example of the sort of low level racism and lack of historical and cultural awareness that is so pervasive here.

As an Irish person living in the uk for nearly 35 years I have often been annoyed by the acceptance of racism towards Irish people. I have had comments thrown at me that would never be said to Black/ Muslim / etc etc people, apparently it’s all just banter !

@InionEile agree absolutely with you.

I'm English, living in Ireland. To look back to the country of my origin is to see all of this attitude. Not from everyone, but a significant proportion.

Even 'right-on' people have an unconscious superiority, inculcated by the authorities, media, and culturally, related to our colonial past.

This manifests itself differently and to different degrees - from out and out little Englander Brexiteers down to 'appropriation' of writers, artists, sportspeople, etc, and the view that they're 'really English' for some reason of superficial resemblence/convenience.

I can think of two whoppers I came out with to Irish friends. (I won't repeat them!) As soon as they left my lips I was cringing at my absolute clangers - which were wrong statements. It has taken living in a different culture to expose my unconscious assumptions and prejudices that I was completely unaware that I held. I try to dismantle them, but I'm sure there are more buried deep down.

Mayra - I agree with the need to tackle racism on MN towards Irish people, it’s unacceptable. But please don’t say, you have comments thrown at you that would never be thrown at black/Muslim people. You have no idea what they have thrown at them or experience daily. Totally flattering yourself.

Hi all, and apologies for the late response - we've been a bit overrun and it's all hands on deck here.

We allowed the thread to run because people were addressing the points made by the OP in good faith. Initially, there was a strong discussion about Irish literature, identity and culture, and the importance of historical context.

We received some reports asking us to take a look, and posted on the thread to say that it was an interesting discussion and requested that contributors made their points politely.

MNHQ's comment was a response to the discussion as it stood at the halfway point of the thread - it was intended to draw attention to the points being made about Irish writing being considered through the lens of colonial/post colonial literature (and it certainly wasn't meant to imply that Irish literature doesn't count as literature).

We took down the thread because we received more reports that it had gone sour - we also discovered that the OP probably wasn't posting in good faith, and that their contributions were posted in order to be inflammatory.

It is never our intention to minimise racism or prejudice. We understand that many of you were offended by the tone of the discussion and we could have taken it down sooner. We’ve learnt from this and we’ll try to move faster in future.

If you see any post which breaks the talk guidelines then please report it and we'll take a look.

Thank you MyGhoul for coming on the thread, but you haven't really taken on board the points that were being made, and are continuing to be made here.

It wasn't "an interesting discussion" it was a RACIST discussion.

how can you not get that? How can you not see it? And how can you not see that the statement by the mod was part of the problem?

Initially, there was a strong discussion about Irish literature, identity and culture, and the importance of historical context.

should read

"Initially, there was a strong racist discussion about ..."

the Op actually said, way before the mod posted, that Irish writers weren't Irish because they were English really. Or words to that effect. And wasn't deleted. How can you honestly not see that it was racist?

The people to whom it was racist towards were telling you from the get to that it was racist. It was typical of the faux innocent or just culturally ignorant racism that pervades here, and the Irish were telling you from the get to it was racist. Why didn't you believe us?

@MNHQ Will you be taking steps to better understand the roots of the issues we have raised about anti-Irish sentiment as well?

My OH and I were stunned by this thread and couldn't believe some of what was written. Having a discussion to widen your understanding or knowledge is one thing this clearly wasn't.
It is in fact quite disturbing how little people know about the colonial past of Britain and the devastating effects it had on the world. There literally countries still at war due to the British colonial past and the term Troubles makes it sound like some kids drinking and having a scrap on the street corner.

We're probably too small a demographic (especially to advertisers) for @MNHQ to bother much with and the examples given aren't blatantly offensive
enough to make a good headline which would embarrass the site. I just wouldn't expect this to be a big issue for them.

The thread didn't turn sour - it was started by a disingenuous poster in order to goad. This was reported fairly early on to MNHQ but their response was to inform posters who could see where this was heading to mind their manners.
If this thread was an interesting discussion on literature - why wasn't it moved to Books, why was it left in AIBU after MNHQ felt it was such an interesting and worthwhile discussion? gotta keep those clicks up?

@implantsandaDyson 100% agree with what you said. It started off badly and offensive and didn't just turn sour halfway.

Irish history isn't covered in the uk school system. If we don't mention it - it didn't happen,

I think the responses on that thread from the outset made it very clear that many posters saw it as goady and racist.

MNHQ - I'm a long standing MN'er and I think your response on that thread and this one is rubbish. The OP on that thread was out to be insulting and disingenuous from the start and you missed it. Don't try to wriggle out of it now by pretending there was some sort of high level debate going on about the merits of post colonial literature .

Exactly liberty it's wriggling out to say now that it was a high level discussion on literature.

So it's ok to be racist as long as you're polite about it? Hmm!

Jesus Christ MNHQ.

FFS.

Clueless.

Useless.

@MNHQ why can't you accept you were in the wrong here instead of justifying your stance? That response is piss poor, you still don't get it.

For the sake of balance a thoughtful piece on British Irish relations from today's Irish Times

Our re elected president talked about the importance of language the other day - these conversations matter - and being balanced and fair matters, and owning it when you make a mistake matters especially with old friends. So please MNHQ, be respectful towards your Irish posters and don't ignore us when we tell you that you got it wrong.

I've reported again to see if we can get a further response from MNHQ, based on the further posts on this thread and the view of what has been said by them so far.