Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

I don’t post often, but I read a lot. I’m busy silently generating clicks on a page. Mostly because I am autistic and physically disabled, typing is a struggle so is knowing what is appropriate communication but it doesn’t mean I am not paying attention. I know these rules are supposed to help, but they don’t help me. Too many rules and guidelines, too much information, too many ambiguities, too many possible ways to confuse the hell out of my brain and give me too many opportunities to say ‘the wrong thing’ so I will probably not post at all. Even if I get it right I will worry that I didn’t and I don’t need any additional anxiety in my life. It feels oppressive. While I feel a particular minority has been supported by this by MNHQ, another has definitely been disadvantaged and I won’t hang around a site that isn’t supportive of invisible disability.

If Gibb is the Twitter user linked, I think it's clear that this person is just pushing to see how far they can go. I dare say securing 'improved' conditions for transwomen is not the primary objective.

It's like a social experiment on what exact type of shit and how many times you need to fling it are required to make it stick, ie. to get women to concede ground in the most absurd manner imaginable.

I'm not conceding an inch. If I end up banned for that, so be it.

I'm not conceding an inch.

Good.

As I think Pratchet said on the other thread:

NON DESISTAS
NON EXIERIS

Never back down.
Stand our ground!

And what @DixieFlatline said! ^

I just read the other thread.

40 pages of women tying themselves in knots to pander to the demands of men and lets face it is men that are causing this problem.

How about we just call them men if they are male and women if they are female.

Their chosen gender or identity does not change their sex so why make it so complicated?

The men in all this have everyone dancing to their tune. They are making everyday language so complicated that eventually people will just give up and call them women. It is what they have wanted all along.

I am going to stop using transwoman/man. It is innacurate and frankly a lie.
I am not going to use TIF or TIM or any other acronym.
Male female man women.
Simple.
Truthful.
Factual.

I would imagine my 3 strikes will be up quickly.

I sure gib is a nice and decent person irl but on this subject we really would make more progress if we did not respond. There are better uses for energy and time such as posting an open letter to MN against this curtailing of factual speech.

The gloating on Twitter sure makes it clear what sort of move this is. Thanks a bunch, MN

They will cosmic canary. You cannot say Jane Smith* is a man if Jane Smith thinks he is a woman.

We have lost here.

If we all leave or get banned they have won. If we stay we have lost the power to name objective reality.

Lose-lose

I often read things on MN which are very upsetting to me. There were 2 threads recently - one about formula feeding and one about IVF on NHS - where there were comments which I found very upsetting and hurtful. However, I did not report them or demand that people stop talking about it. I stopped reading those threads and found something else to read. I did not expect that other people should stop expressing facts and their opinions to avoid hurting my feelings.

Stating biological facts may be hurtful to a trans person reading them but that doesn’t mean that people should not be allowed to say them. Robust debate is just that. If it upsets you, perhaps you need to step away from the debate for a while?

I’m falling on the side of not censoring any terms. Why a different standard for the trans debates compared to other topics? I think we know why... a group of people would really much prefer it if women just shut up. They don’t want reasoned discussion, they want submission to their ideology.

They will cosmic canary. You cannot say Jane Smith is a man if Jane Smith thinks he is a woman.*

I can say it but it will get me banned from a forum orginally set up for women.
I have been here a good few years but if my time is up its up.

When you are told to lie and go along with delusional thinking simply to protect another persons feelings you are being abused. Mumsnet have become the abusers.
Everytime they delete a posts for stating a fact they add to that abuse.

Time to LTB i feel.

Macareaux
We have not lost. Woman are creative and thoughtful and will continue the debate within the tougher guidelines.

This is only temporary, as those who are currently pressurising Mumsnet towers squeeze tighter and tighter. Eventually Mumsnet will see what is happening, recind these rules and allow free speech again. I have faith.

Plus the biggest problem with all the woman rights issues at the moment, is the lack of definations which are universal.

We need to ask questions to provoke people's thoughts.

What is a woman ?
Can a woman have xy chromosomes ?
Can a woman be born a man ?

'Trans person' can be used and if sex is not mentioned it will be read to mean male as a default.

Discussion will continue, we will win. This trend will move on in a few years and we can push back the laws to retain women's rights.

I'm just here to placemark - and also say a giant "fuck off" to anyone using autism as a "Why can't you all just be niiiiiiice".

I'm autistic, as are many others here, and we hate this form of gaslighting and lying.

Anyone autistic who's fallen for this stuff is vulnerable and deserved better protection. It hurts to read about it,

We are now being bullied into denying reality. Why on earth does MN think that's ok?

Women are being bullied into silence, it's happening on several forums I'm a member of and it's frightening. TRAs hate us because we are everything they want to be but can never be. They need to get over that.

No penises in female only spaces. You want refuges? Do what we did campaign for and build your own, don't steal ours.

Still Spartacus.

Would 'identifying as female' -idF for short, and 'identifying as male' -idM be acceptable compromises on both sides? Doesn't include the 'wrong' gender but does make it very clear who we are talking about?

It was a neat trick including "don't be rude to the mods" in there, so anyone who isn't happy about the rules or how they're being applied or how this is playing out in general can now be deleted and then banned on the grounds of not showing sufficient respect to the mods.

A bit Cartman, that.

David Aaronovitch in The Times today advocating freedom of speech in the GRA debate:

Do we really want to say that we will not see the difference in experience between, crudely, someone with a womb and someone with a willy?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/assaults-on-free-speech-are-led-by-the-left-l2r8t9t9p?shareToken=d99c908ebaf10ccf760a000cb98a2bd1

Genitals can be mentioned in The Times but not on MN?

TRAs hate us because we are everything they want to be but can never be.

I think that some of the current activists couldn't care less about being women, they're just hitting back at feminism and "political correctness" - but yes, it makes sense that at least some of the vitriol is pure jealousy.

In the real world you can't shut people up quite so easily or force them to accept you for what you want to be.

Don't be rude to the mods is the rule on most forums, and rightly so. I'm astonished at what is allowed on MN.

I'd like to think that "don't be rude to the mods" is "stop bloody sending abusive messages at the mods" rather than "you can no longer grumble at Mumsnet again", but I could be wrong. They must be on the receiving end of some vociferous complaints.

There's rudeness and then there's disagreement, which can be and recently has been interpreted as rudeness and/or defiance.

If anyone is sending the mods or anyone else abusive messages that's not on. I very much doubt that's what was meant.

some of those aspects are mutable (eg breasts) , some are immutable (eg genotype). Sex (male or female) is based on the overall picture.

You only have to consider the case of women who undergo mastectomy to realise how ridiculous that statement is. Are they any less women because they have no breasts? No.

I am sure that disagreement is just as hurtful to the mods as it is to the transgender persons who do not like being described as male when they identify as non-male.