Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

@AngryAttackKittens

Transparency, or a list of names of whom we can reference or not, would be more than useful.

Anyhoo, let's hope I survive the night here seeing as I'm on my last life. Ffs even candy crush give us five of them here it's 3. 🤣

We'll end up with a whole "banned from Mumsnet for being too honest" club at this rate!

@AngryAttackKittens

That'll never happen. It'll be twisted to

Banned from mumsnet for being transphobic terfs who dared speak about our lills without first donating 500£ to the "oops ive overspent "pot

mirandayardley
I got my first strike for saying what you said in that comment upthread.
You may want to have the mods take it down before one of the patrollers catch sight of it.

Amalfimamma isn't it just because you keep referring to LM as he/him etc. when they have said that they reject those pronouns?

I think I am still safe to say that I don't like LM, I don't think they are qualified in any way for the women's officer role, I have been worried about what I have read about their attempts to remove GC women from the Labour Party, I don't believe what they have said about the old LM twitter account which refers to Jimmy Saville and in fact I don't trust a single word that they say about anything.

And as long as I just use the word 'they' then I believe I am following the rules...

when they have said that they reject those pronouns?

So what if they have?

LM isn't the boss of the world. The world (and MN) really shouldn't be behaving as though they have new rulers. And shouldn't force us to behave that way too.

So what if they have?

LM isn't the boss of the world. The world (and MN) really shouldn't be behaving as though they have new rulers. And shouldn't force us to behave that way too.

I'm just saying I think those are how the new rules work. I can live with it as long as I can continue to find ways to express how appalled I am at both Madigan and the Labour Party for supporting them. I will understand if others don't agree.

Sorry if I come across sharp. I already upset another ally here and I don't want to squabble with any others. We all do things the way we do them and I shouldnt be sharp about it.

Sorry if I come across sharp.

Oh no, don't worry. I was only posting because Amalfimamma said she hadn't 'misgendered' (amongst other things) Madigan and so wanted clarification about why her post had been deleted.

Unless Amalfimamma meant of course that she hadn't 'misgendered' LM because gender doesn't exist, and so it is impossible to misgender anyone. I agree with that stance but it seems MN do not shrugs

Oops. I didn't mean to put shrugs in bold. I put astererix around it to denote that I was shrugging and forgot it would set it to bold.

Let me try this instead 🤷‍♀️

Ally I understand you and thank you for your legal brain!

Omg ally I had to apologise to you as well three weeks ago
Honestly I shouldn't be allowed out

@AllyMcBeagle

But those are the pronouns on all legal documents relating to this person. They have no grc , self id and rejecting pronouns count for nothing in the real world. Now if I were to use those pronouns with I don't know fionne or Miranda I could understand the fuss but just because someone "rejects" pronouns (but all legal documents,station relating to this person has a big fat m on it) didn't make it true or law.

And seeing as they have nothing to do with mumsnet seeing as they are not a parent but a petulant child, I am disgusted that MNHQ are bowing down to their demands. It's like rewarding a toddler for having a tantrum.

Perhaps we should just use their surname, if need be, as in some posts above? That seems to be an acceptable format in most newspapers and there's no acknowledgement of gender that way. Just matter-of-fact comment.

But those are the pronouns on all legal documents relating to this person. They have no grc , self id and rejecting pronouns count for nothing in the real world.

Well I am positive that Madigan has said on Twitter that they have both a GRC and a passport which says that they are female. Despite my views above on their credibility, I wouldn't be actually surprised if they do have a passport with female on it - they are actually fairly easy to get nowadays (you basically just need a note from your GP IIRC).

Anyway, legally, it doesn't really matter. If I turn up at work on Monday and say that I am going to reassign my gender and am eventually going to change my documents but I want everyone to start calling me Bob and addressing me using the pronouns 'he/him/his' now rather than 'she/her', they have to start doing that. As the law stands currently, they wouldn't be able to say 'We're not doing that until you get a GRC.' They might be able to take a short period of time to sort out the paperwork (eg get IT to give me a new email address in the name of Bob) but not long. I know I am discussing a work context here, but it's possible that the Equality Act has some application to MN too if it counts as a 'service' (which I think it arguably could, but the law relating to the internet is not a specialist subject of mine so am not 100% positive on that point).

You can also use 'they/them/their' etc. if you want.

I agree with Pratchet above that it feels like the transperson can dictate use of language in an entirely unnatural way. But it is what it is.

@AllyMcBeagle

No offense is meant with this next comment so please don't feel offended but.....

You message has a very resigned tone to it. As if you've given up.

I haven't. I won't give into the tantrums of a child. It'd be like me rushing out to buy a kennel, collar and leash for my 3 year old because she's started biting and barking.

If my view is not in line with the TAs expectation of a internet board on a forum where they are not active, have no interest in and who come only to report women for being vocal in their opposition to our erasure then I'll go down fighting with roars of "freedom" to be heard for centuries to come. It's the Irish in me. Fighting for what I believe in and melting snowflakes along the way.

Viva
💪🏻

No offense is meant with this next comment so please don't feel offended but.....

None taken whatsoever!

I think I am kind of resigned to this being the new NM policy. I think if I breach it, all that will happen is that I will be banned. I would prefer to stick around and toe the line. It does also occur to me that I have only peaktransed in the last year and if I had come across the FWR board before that I would have been very put off tbh and would have thought everyone was just being unnecessarily mean, so there might be some positives in using slightly more neutral language.

On the basis of the way that the policy has been applied so far, I feel that it won't hinder my ability to get my points across. But I can absolutely understand if you disagree.

Any news on an acceptable collective term that does not a) reference birth sex or b) appropriate my sex?

I've been thinking about that Lang... I did ponder on the idea of using a common name, but not only is that a bit close to what incels do, I can imagine that people called eg 'Paris' who fall in that group would very quickly take offence.

I'm confused. I did try to read the thread, but im lost. Would someone mind summarising what the HQ position actually is?

I've been deleted for a comment I made about transgenderism.

Not sure if it counts as a strike as there was no mention of that in the email but perhaps it was just on the basis of my being notified.

I'm unclear as to which guideline it broke.

It was a short comment about what type of ideology I think transgenderism is that got me deleted. There were no slurs or swearing, no acronyms and my comment was about the ideology / movement so not a comment about any person specific or otherwise.

I would like HQ to explain why we cannot post critical comments about ideologies and also whether we can no longer criticise any ideology or if it is only transgenderism which is untouchable.

I wonder if I would be deleted for making the exact same comment about other ideologies such as feminism, Marxism, etc. I suspect not.

It’s worrying to have a post criticising ideology deleted.

Critique of ideology is NOT breaking any laws. The laws (rightly) protect the people who hold the ideology not the ideology itself. So to criticise a religious colleague or to bang on about it in front of them at work is discriminating against a person.

To criticise the ideology however is not wrong. Not only is it not wrong but the ability to do it is a cornerstone of free societies. The only places that have laws against blasphemy are countries you wouldnt want to live in in a million years.

To be banned from criticising an ideology is worrying - we do not have blasphemy laws in the uk (thank fuck, although Blair tried to bring it in...) NO ideology is free from criticism or even mockery.

People are protected. Ideologies are not.

I'm getting a pissed off about this

If you check my posts I usually obey the rules, i think ive been deleted two or three times, mainly for quoting a deleted post

Im snarky and irritated at times but rarely rude or mean and i spend half my time apologising

And honestly...thats not me at all!!!

But MNHQ are not being fair...at all!! Its not fair not to tell people exactly why they are being deleted. Its not fair to add...frankly confusing, clarification to previously issued guidelines

Its not fair holding one board to a much higher standard than other boards...its not fair not telling people across the site that there have been changes that apparently affect everyone

I understand that MNHQ are trying not to have hard and fast rules about this...but there are pages of people saying 'can we say....' (and to be fair to MNHQ its usually ' of course you can...dont be stupid') and its virtually radio silence

It would be nice to have one thread with questions and answers...surely its not beyond the wit of woman to arrange that

Its really not fair to delete 'yawn' or 'bless'

I appreciate that this is a self reporting site

But lets be honest...only a complete cunt would report 'yawn'

And no....i really dont need any fucker saying...1st world problems or life isnt fair

Im having another beer and sulking in the corner watching Dr Who

I would like HQ to explain why we cannot post critical comments about ideologies and also whether we can no longer criticise any ideology or if it is only transgenderism which is untouchable.

Really, really disturbing.