Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

NotTerfNorCis they have said you will get an email for each deletion, but since they will likely be working through a thread you could probably get all three at once and a fourth email banning you.

Okay thanks echt. I was just wondering about people who post a lot, who might get posts taken down without noticing, and don't realise they're on dodgy ground.

LastTrainEast this is what worries me.

Oh god

Now i want to know what it was echt

DONT TELL ME!!!! DONT TELL ME!!!!

I think the deletions issue is part of the reason MNHQ have STILL not put this thread as "Trending", though I'm betting it's the most active thread on the site. If more MNers noticed it, there'd be a torrent of, ahem, robust views, lots of deletions, which would be embarrassing for MN.

Far better to keep it under the radar, so very safe for MNHQ, but rather disingenuous when you consider whatever happens to be the "policy" on Trending is, which I imagine is triggered by the number of posts.

Surely deletion messages could be shared (if we're so inclined)? They're official company policy, not secret private messages. It would also help us understand why deletions are happening - "talk guidelines" could mean anything at all.

(Or is that against rules too?)

"Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level"

I find my bank account distressing. Still doesn't make me write posts will "punch a banker" or worse.

Nor does it make me sign up to a completely random forum in which I have no interest nor business being on to complain about banking discussing financial markets and the stock markets.

If everyone complained to site owners about what "distresses" them, internet would be shut down within 15 minutes,

I’ve been away. What new guidelines? Is there a list?

Oh, have found it.

I think the deletions issue is part of the reason MNHQ have STILL not put this thread as "Trending", though I'm betting it's the most active thread on the site. If more MNers noticed it, there'd be a torrent of, ahem, robust views, lots of deletions, which would be embarrassing for MN

Maybe make a helpful thread in politics/aibu/etc informing people that MN are enforcing a new "3 strikes" system aimed at anyone who writes a post that could potentially upset trans males who have been using twitter to complain about women here talking openly about the impact of new legislation they are pushing for.

You'll probably get the usual "oh none of this interests me/about time the transphobes got shut down" posts, ignore those and focus instead on the a) women who are also concerned about this or don't know about it yet and b) women who don't necessarily align with our views on this or care about this issue but will easily see that today it is men on twitter campaigning against mumsnet women talking about gender but this sets a precedent for silencing women here from talking clearly about any topic that upsets people somewhere else on the internet. This is a bad precedent. FWR is brutally analytical and intelligent BUT it is also incredibly polite and the language here is far cleaner than some of the other boards on MN. This crackdown on women speaking is only the beginning - the door is being opened to all sorts of MRAs, FRAs, general misogynists, and other Internet crazies. Big mistake MN.

I'll be amazed if any journalists can find this thread.

Tweet, email, direct message, phone, write to them and make them aware. This is actually a pretty big story with implications far beyond gender critical women on Mumsnet.

One of the many odd things about the underpants gnome theory of pronouns proposed in the other thread (step one, muddy the fuck out of pronouns, step 2, ?, step 3, women are now equal!) is that most names are also gendered, so if someone sees that both a Sally and a Dave are auditioning for an orchestra or applying for an office job they know which one has the vagina and which one has the penis without having to ask for their pronouns. Are we going to rename everyone Sam or Pat? Because if not, dropping the pronouns won't make any difference.

There's also the fact that nobody other than Rat seems to want this, so, you know, shine on you crazy diamond and all, but other women don't have to join your quest if they don't want to.

On reporting, I'm not going to report cis or TERF because I think it's petty and stupid. If anything we should be pressing HQ to walk back the whole concept of banned words, because censorship is not a good thing.

Forgot the fucking message. Sorry

Oh my giddy aunt.

Go on then, Kate - give me such a term that does not involve coercing me to use terminology for the female sex.

There is no such term and gaslighting us into pretending that there is abusive of your gender critical users.

This is outrageous.

I am not using any terminology belonging to the female sex to refer to people who are not of the female sex. End of.

This is the gender critical position. You just banned it.

Agreed. Orwell would be chuckling bitterly if he was alive to read this. "We'll allow you to express this position as long as you don't actually express the position"? Really?

Why do you think that forcing women into linguistic contortions if they're to speak at all and then expecting them to be grateful for the privilege of doing so is an acceptable thing for a website aimed at women to be doing?

Are we allowed to say that 'top surgery' is breast amputation and bottom surgery is castration?

Why are we even talking on a thread titled "trans rights and gender critical issues"?

The issue for women is protecting same sex spaces for women and girls.

No one seems more supportive of expressing oneself any way you choose, just, if you're male, don't do it in our protected spaces or sports.

If trans people want to discuss trans rights why not set up a new topic for trans rights issues and delete any comments on fwr not centred on the rights of women and girls?

It certainly is a big story if we're to be deleted and banned for uttering someone's legal name. Or for referring to their actual, legal sex, despite everyone agreeing that sex and gender are not the same thing.

As an aside, it's so gobsmackingly ironic that after lifetime of the patriarchy ostensibly valuing cold hard facts over subjectivity and personal feelings, all of a sudden Their feelz take priority over all else, logic, truth and other people's rights be damned.

Are we allowed to say that 'top surgery' is breast amputation and bottom surgery is castration?

Oh I'd like to know the answer to this, definitely. Also are we allowed to point out that a vagina cannot be made out of colon or inside out penis and that claiming it can is one of most disgusting and misogynist things that men have ever come up with?

Seems to me MN are treating the board like a workplace and are policing misgenderiing or anything that would result in them being accused of harassment.

The flaw in that approach is the FWR board isn't a workplace plus women aren't accorded the same treatment and respect by the moderation policy - for example why are women here expected to tolerate verbal abuse and trolling tactics of derailing etc - which is targeted abuse at women here in the FWR board? Why don't MN defend women being targeted, as any responsible employer would?

Why isn't the distress caused by the appropriation of women's sex plus policing of their behaviour taken seriously by MN? Why don't they declare FWR a protected space for women? Why are MN replicating male violence tactics by coercing and silencing women? Why are MN sanctioning women who report abuse instead of those who cause unnecessary conflict by their trolling here and on Twitter referencing here?

Why are you forcing women to tolerate illegal behaviour on the FWR board from abusive men who crossdress? No one had any problem with those transsexuals who are reasonable - only those who aren't.

If want to treat the FWR board like a workplace then take workplace bullying seriously because what is happening here is serious sexual harassment under the guise of freedom of speech for men who cross dress.

Woah! The legal names of transgender persons are not allowed?
That is a bizarre rule.

@JustineMumsnet

You have the support of millions of mumsnet users, we are behind you @JustineMumsnet, all the way.

It’s obvious now that mumsnet has been targeted by a group whose purpose is to make you comply with their demands, or bring you down.

When you first set Mumsnet up was it to provide a space online for women to get together? What would you have told yourself to do in this situation? How would you feel/do you feel about being forced to engage in doublespeak?

Tell the Men’s Rights Activists to get to fuck.

They can set up their own website if they wish, mensnet, TRAnet, XYnet, whatever they like.

They can take away their blatant misogyny, and they can also stop co-opting people with genuine body dysphoria into their movement, and just leave us women, and our allies the hell alone.