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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

744 replies

PermissionToSpeakSir · 13/06/2018 22:54

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

OP posts:
Battleax · 14/06/2018 14:34

Well if anyone does, come and join me please;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3277821-Help-me-make-a-list-of-MN-s-advertisers?watched=1

Datun · 14/06/2018 14:34

Ffs what a mess.

HQ, we can talk about biology, we can talk about science, we can hold a gender critical viewpoint, you are firm advocates of free speech? Yes?

You feel as though putting the word male, indicating natal sex, in a term for transwomen is malicious? Malicious for gender critical women, to talk about science and biology, advocated by free speech, by using the word male for a man who supports damaging gender stereotypes on the basis of their natal sex??!

It is not, not, not malicious. Its just not. It's crucial to the argument. It's a defending position. It's not an attack.

Please acknowledge that this is not malicious. For god's sake.

If you are caught up about the terminology, and there is not a person here who doesn't understand how or why, then could you do this:

Could you confirm that you accept the word transwoman and you promise this will not change even if you are put under more pressure? (You may have noticed that most people here are of the opinion that this pressure will never stop).

You will, definitely, lose women over it, because many women are simply not prepared to use that word.

You are now being asked by women, who feel heart stoppingly unwelcome here, to provide a word that satisfies transactivists and feminists.

It can't be done.

Furthermore, when these women leave, the pressure and stress that you're under, will not stop.

This site is characterised across-the-board by the feminists. MPs, journalists, novelists, activists, all hang out here. It is the feminists talking on the rest of the board that has given this site it's flavour. Its power.

Unless you believe there is another difference between this and other parenting sites?

This one has political clout, because the women are political.

Do I understand what you want to happen? You want the word male to be removed from addressing transwomen because they have demanded it. But we can still say transwomen are men if we are discussing a gender critical viewpoint?

You will, and are, losing women over this.

At least stem the tide by promising you will go no further. Acknowledge it's not malicious. Acknowledge it's a compromise and the inevitable further pressure will not result in new rules re terminology.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 14/06/2018 14:34

I am starting to think more aggressive counter-measures are required.

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 14/06/2018 14:37

It isn't counter to science once you realise that sex, like gender, is a social construct. People aren't born into a sex - they are assigned one.

This is incorrect. No one is assigned a sex at birth. Their sex is observed. A baby with ambiguous genitalia would be genetically tested. There is no assignment of sex only observation.

Gender is a social construct. Sex is immutable. do you believe human being can change sex? not gender, not any of the ‘how you look and act’ stuff - actual sex.

Can a person with XY chromosomes change into a person with XX chromosomes, if so, please explain how because it’d win you a Nobel

AllyMcBeagle · 14/06/2018 14:38

Just to note apple (ie iPhone software) doesn't recognise the word transwomen and tries to split it in two. Make of that what you will.

My iPhone has eventually learned not to correct me when I says 'transwomen'. It still seems to be struggling with 'transmen' though and I nearly ended up writing 'transmembrane' this morning. Confused

Battleax · 14/06/2018 14:38

am starting to think more aggressive counter-measures are required.

Our power is our numbers.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 14/06/2018 14:38

fortunate

Misunderstanding...but its going to take me an hour to try and word my explanation so im not going to

hope thats ok Thanks

Suffice to say you werent being rude or saying anyone else was Smile

Battleax · 14/06/2018 14:39

Just to note apple (ie iPhone software) doesn't recognise the word transwomen and tries to split it in two. Make of that what you will.

Make sure you add it. I suspect they have access to such data.

Datun · 14/06/2018 14:43

And Gib

I don't mean to be rude, but you are completely uninformed about AGP. Many men who have AGP will have hormones and/or surgery. To create breasts and a feminised figure.

Most stop short of genital surgery, but certainly not all, by any means. The ultimate thrill is to have sex 'as a woman'.

Reading Blanchards typology will tell you everything if you need to know about it. If you disregard him, simply read the thread I posted on here, and see how many men/TW want surgery/hormones.

It does feel completely counter intuitive to take female hormones as it can cause a reduction in libido. So for those who do not want this, they just have surgery to create breasts.

There are, however, many men whose is AGP is very distressing. Taking female hormones is a bonus. It creates the feminisation they desire, but reduces their sex drive.

The pattern often involves a binge/purge element and porn plays a huge part.

Men who viewed women as weak victims and get aroused by this, have no place in women's spaces.

You cannot define the difference by making a distinction between those with or without surgery.

JoanSummers · 14/06/2018 14:44

Re aggressive members, I think we should be getting legal advice. It is illegal to deny services like this even when they are provided freely.

It's all very well arguing that women need mumsnet for support but what is it worth if Mumsnet as an org are putting their substantial power and influence behind making women unpeople.

MipMipMip · 14/06/2018 14:45

I'm on Samsung and use their keyboard. I can't find a way to add words (unless I misspell for long enough!) Can anyone help?

FortunateCookie · 14/06/2018 14:46

No worries Rufus Smile

JoanSummers · 14/06/2018 14:47

Aggressive action nit members.

But this has been forced by some men being aggressive without even being members.

We need to fight back.

ImagineBeing · 14/06/2018 14:59

History has taught us that totalitarian regimes do not win.

Religions belief has been crushed in communist countries, religion carried on regardless.

Men may try to crush women and our language. We will carry on regardless. We will find ways to teach our children what is a man and what is a woman based on sex. We will do this because it is what keeps us as females safe and it is what keeps the human race going via reproduction.

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 14/06/2018 15:00

We can’t refer to natal sex? When natal sex and the oppression we suffer because of it is the root of feminism?
That is fucking ridiculous.

drspouse · 14/06/2018 15:23

I'm on Samsung and use their keyboard.
Try Swype which is a great gesture (i.e. not hunt and peck) keyboard. You can add on the Android (not on the Ipad but it will learn).

LangCleg · 14/06/2018 15:46

You will, definitely, lose women over it, because many women are simply not prepared to use that word.

I. Will. Not. Use. That. Word.

user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 15:50

I’m going to boycott l’Oreal. So many examples, but this one really bothers me:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=f8j8FyQbY5c

Battleax · 14/06/2018 15:55

I’m going to boycott l’Orea

Me too and I’m telling them why.

KateMumsnet · 14/06/2018 16:00

Hi all

It looks as though some people haven't seen our posts earlier, and may have the wrong end of the stick. To reassure you, we've been discussing the collective nouns that posters use to describe trans people as a group; we're not preventing anyone from asserting that transwomen are born male, or expressing a gender critical position.

We do, though, think it's right to be civil when we refer to other people. Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level - so let's not have a collective expression for them which insistently defines them by their bio sex.

Look, we honestly do know that words are important here; but this is a complex issue, and it's probable that everyone will have to live with some contradictions and compromises in order for a dialogue to take place.

Thanks
MNHQ

user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 16:07

“Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level - so let’s not have a collective expression for them which insistently defines them by their bio sex.”

Lots of us find the truth about lots of things distressing. That doesn’t mean we think denying the facts is the right way to go.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 14/06/2018 16:11

I find it extremely distressing having my language policed to avoid offending people who are deliberately seeking me out to police my language @katemumsnet

I feel under seige.

There are contradictions I shouldn't need to live with because some males can't cope with their own internal contradictions.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 14/06/2018 16:12

We do, though, think it's right to be civil when we refer to other people. Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level - so let's not have a collective expression for them which insistently defines them by their bio sex.

@KateMumsnet - as I keep saying, if you give me one that does not appropriate my bio sex, I will use it.

I find the appropriation of my bio sex by people of the male sex - and not on some level, on every level - distressing. Why doesn't my distress count for anything?

So what collective noun do you have for me to use? You say it can't mention their bio sex. I say it can't mention my bio sex. So what collective noun would be appropriate? Give it to me: I'll use it.

SirVixofVixHall · 14/06/2018 16:13

@KateMumsnet Not all trans people find the reality of their sex distressing, by any means, as not all people who fall under the trans umbrella have dysphoria, and of those who do, there are people like Miranda Yardley , who are honest about and reconciled to their sex.
So the policy is really there to support individuals who may be offended by reality. How on God’s earth are we supposed to have conversations about the rights of women and girls, or anything else for that matter, if we can’t use terms that offend someone who can’t cope with reality ? Frankly I wonder why someone with so shakey a sense of self would be policing the FEMINIST boards on MUMSnet. This isn’t about not offending random individuals, or many posts across all topics would be deleted. This is about capitulating to a very vocal activist group. It is disingenuous to put the emotional weight of someone else’s fragility onto women, many of whom will have dealt with this in their personal lives. Expecting gaslit women to lie for instance ? Shabby and cruel. This is primarily a website for women, and men who support them. To tell us we now have to consider the opinions of the opposite sex every time we post in the feminist section ? That is both bizarre and depressing.

Battleax · 14/06/2018 16:13

Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level - so let's not have a collective expression for them which insistently defines them by their bio sex.

But biosex is the distinction it’s necessary to make in the face of the chant “transwomen are women”.

All we are doing is trying to hold the existing legislative line here @KateMumsnet so the term “women” to mean women is not erased. Because that will mean the effective legal removal of all sex-based protections.

So what exactly are we allowed to say on MN to defend this?