Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

fortunate

Is that what echt said?

We really have a different definition of rude if thats the case

And im always calling people rude!!

Mumsnet, now that it's so particular as to the naming of folk needs to reconsider its title as it is no longer a valid place for people who have not pushed/had human babies pulled out of their bodies.

Hang on......

Over to you Justine.

Maryz - when MN moderators post under their username according to the MN party line, they will get shouted at. If the username could just be changed to BigSisterMumsnet, the personal aspect could be avoided and we would all benefit from the clarity

What maryz said

All my dealings with the mods are very pleasant

But people should be allowed to complain about the moderation policy

So, we're no longer allowed to refer to someone's biological sex? Is that correct?
This appears to completely contradict what Justine said in her statement...
We are allowed to discuss biology and science but not make any reference to the fact that transwomen are biologically male?

My understanding was that we are allowed to discuss the fact that transwomen are biologically male and therefore there may be differences in terms of eg behaviour/sporting ability/other physical abilities etc when compared to women and how this could impact on women.

It's just that the term that we use to refer to transwomen cannot refer to the fact that they were born biologically male.

Is that right? I could live with that personally. It's not really different from what I have been doing so far.

I am really disturbed that @Kate has set out two options:

1. Call a man a woman, even if this:

contradicts your personal beliefs,
deeply offends you,
prevents you from clearly articulating your relevant points and
runs counter to the purpose of the board provided by MN for discussing feminism.

Or

2. Fuck off away from Mumsnet - it is obviously not the right forum for you.

It's authoritarian.

I like that idea user

Yes i thought that ally but now I'm totally lost

I also think it's fair to say that this new guideline is bonkers, unfair, sexist and impossible to moderate.

This! MNHQ, I could say you have sadly fallen into the trap of trying to be nice like a lot of companies have after being attacked by transrights activists, but as you seemed to have been surviving I do not think yiu are doing this on good faith and are actually against gender critical voices. You have drunk the Koolaid

Rufus - we need to start calling a spade a spade

Rufus was the below meant for me? I haven’t called anyone rude I don’t think?

fortunate

Is that what echt said?

We really have a different definition of rude if thats the case

And im always calling people rude!!

Can I ask a question (okay, another question)?

Have the specific lines in the sand that are given been put there on the advice of a legal bod? Or are they what MNHQ have decided is a fair compromise?

I see that you’d like Mn not to be inherently hostile to any group

Could it be that the effect of the term transwoman is being underestimated at Mnhq

Just wondering if there becomes a tipping point where the number of posters feeling unwelcome due to the term is considered too?

I agree user.

I think the idea of individual mods using their names to try to keep the moderation personal and friendly is all very well, but when it comes to really contentious and divisive issues it's not fair to put a single person up to face the wrath of mumsnetters wronged!

But yeah, if transwomen are men is not allowed to stand then neither should transwomen are women...is that right, because its hinging everything on natal sex

Absolutely

Marsha - asking MN not to be hostile towards a group that is itself intrinsically hostile, in its very essence, towards the vast majority of MN users is nonsensical. Women must not be denied their legitimate rights to self-defence. Not all positions are reconcilable.

User I can’t tell if you’re saying what I’m saying

That there may be more people who feel this is inherently hostile and unwelcoming on here - just from the reaction it feels it could be so

And if so at what point do Mnhq listen to that

It’s a very difficult position

But it makes me glad I learnt a lot about the power of language at one point - words do matter

But we have to talk about biology.

Why not ban any mention of trans at all and just allow biology?

After all I do not care how the people who share female only space, identity as.

I only care that they are biologically female from birth and have xx chromosomes.

Those people who don't meet this criteria need a different space.

Can we say this and just explain why female spaces have to remain for female from birth, xx chromosomes people only.

Maryz - absolutely. And the “friendly face personal named poster” is as Big Brother a position as they come. Justine should be deeply ashamed at such blatant hypocrisy.

I suspect we agree, Marsha. We usually do (long time poster here, recent name change).

we need to start calling a spade a spade
I'm liking this.
Trans person born with a spade.
Trans person born with a bucket (hmmm, needs some work that one).
So we can be SERFs instead of PERFs.

Back to using transwoman in the same way as I use snapdragon and seahorse. I have come to understand that the terms transwoman and transman are not the preferred terms of those advocating for greater trans rights. They prefer the terms trans woman and trans man because they want to argue that trans is, for example, a type of woman, not that transwomen are something distinct.

I prefer to use transwoman and transman in order to retain that distinction - ie a person born as one biological sex who wishes to present, and be treated, as though they were members of the other biological sex.

OMG, I just read that thebewilderness suffered multiple deletions in the other thread?

Outrageous. Just how anti-feminist can this site be? thebewilderness is a secondwaver, and this is just not a personal attack on her, but on the second wave of feminism generally.

When a site disregards secondwavers, they show their hand. As male allies. Not feminism, not even remotely.

They prefer the terms trans woman and trans man because they want to argue that trans is, for example, a type of woman, not that transwomen are something distinct.

Yes, that is correct. You will never see me type that as two words, ever.

I refuse to use transwomen, because woman refers to biology, not gender.

If these people would like to think of a term for themseleves that doesnt deny my biology, I'll use it.

Until then, man, men, male and boys will be sufficient.