Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

the general term for trans people can't hang on their natal sex

What does that mean? Am I being thick?

So if posters insist that "transwomen are women", then that is not allowed?

And neither is "Transwomen are men"? Even if biologically they are.

I am now deeply confused.... the whole reason we object to transpeople in our sex-segregated spaces is because of their natal sex...at least, where they have penises, on which there seems to be common agreement. (There seems to be a mixed response to transsexuals - most happy to have "the old-fashioned unthreatening kind" but many now very disturbed by what they have learnt about autogynephilia... something I knew nothing about just six months ago).

Transwoman is clearly okay ... but there are now a large number of women who find it tough to use. I certainly am no longer feeling comfortable with it as a term, although the logic in my brain goes it is just a "seahorse" surely I can cope? But the reality is I feel very threatened by it now. Equally the challenge discussed earlier is that many males who fall under the transgender umbrella are not transwomen but crossdressers etc- so transgender males seems accurate

So the question remains - is there a term that does not include the appropriation of the word woman - and does not include natal sex..... Hmm.

I do feel that Mumsnet guidance has changed... they were previously saying TIM wasn't okay, because no one identifies as Trans, which seemed appropriate to me - and NOT because of the reference to natal sex.

But they now appear to be saying that terms used elsewhere - such as MtT and FtT in the medical world - or just the simple male transpeople are problematic.

It is on the basis of sex that women are oppressed and on that basis that women rights are founded. It is in international law that sex is the basis of the granting of women’s rights - Sheila Jeffrey's

Sex matters. Biology is not bigotry.

People cannot change sex however much they might like to assert they can.

I don’t use “transwoman” or “transman”. Trans person is fine.

I refuse to use transwoman . I find it offensive and I feel it is a step towards simply using woman, as seen in recent accounts of crimes reported in the press. It is deliberately eroding the actual meaning of the word woman. I also think it is misleading, my dds get confused, as to them a trans woman is a woman who feels she is trans.

Why this sudden shift ? Is it really down to the person on twitter (with three followers, ranting about Mumsnet making them suicidal) ?

"Sorry Gobberty but that's transphobic. At least, that's what I was told when I expressed concern that self ID would result in people not being able to access mental healthcare as easily (as they wouldn't automatically be referred when they started the trans process). Expecting any involvement with healthcare is not allowed and penalizing trans people who want to stay exactly as they are but presenting differently. "

Yes, I prefer self-ID for those and other reasons but gender critical women might be better with constructive criticism which considers how the present system could be improved for trans people while not going as far as self-ID which gender critical women seem to hate. Saying no without offering any constructive alternative is rarely successful.

I will use the terms transwomen and trans man in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as I use the words dandelion, seahorse and snapdragon. To help me communicate about something. It does not imply or mean that I believe seahorses are horses.

It is impossible to reconcile the desire by the vast majority of human females to have exclusive rights to callling themselves women with the desire by the relatively tiny number of trans people born with a penis also to call themselves women. It cannot be done. If it goes to referendum, human females are going to win.

I don’t use “transwoman” or “transman”. Trans person is fine.

But what about when you need to make a distinction between the two groups? eg there are different considerations when transwomen and transmen use women's bathrooms.

Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex.

We have now entered the Twilight Zone!

Mumsnet, you are making yourself a laughing stock!

It's an implied threat, echt.

So "we might delete you, we might not, we retain control over what you say, we are going to keep you on your toes so you are never quite sure whether or not you are about to be deleted/banned".

Where have we seen this before? Women being silenced, but allowed to speak sometimes. But not too much. Or too often. Just keep that little element of fear and uncertainty and worry.

It's a fucking disgrace.

would it be childish to report every claim of "transwomen are women" as that's an implication of natal sex, which we're not allowed to mention?

But natal sex is the whole point.

The word transwoman automatically implies that someone's natal sex is male. What are you going to do if transwomen then say that makes them feel unwelcome & it's only acceptable to refer to them as women?

People if you have press contacts, this is the time to use them. Mumsnet is banning women for noticing that some people are men, if it makes those men cry!

The more people point and laugh at this ridiculous rule, the better. Women on a forum for mothers are not allowed to mention biology!

Mumsnet - GET OFF YOUR KNEES!

So you can say it a bit but not too much. How much? How many times. Do tell.

I would like some clarity on this too please. Can I use it on my first reference to TWs in each post? Or can I use it once per thread? Do I have to check whether anyone else in the thread has used it?

I know this will sound like I am trying to be annoying but I have used these kinds of clarifications in the past - as some say, it helps cut down confusion with newbies and I have generally used 'transwoman' instead of the now banned term beginning with 'T' - but I was never worried before that my attempts to express myself clearly could lead to deletions/banning.

user I agree... I will be using transperson most of the time.... although it is not clear which sex it relates to it is good enough.... and when we then talk about concerns about our 13 year old daughters meeting a transperson with a penis in our changing rooms it is clear what we mean....

I have just realised that, although there is no sex-identifier within it, that whenever one talks about transsexuals, which was common parlance until recently, everyone assumed male -which almost all of them were....

diane although I agree with your seahorse approach - which is where I was just 24 hours ago ... I am now realising that it is a very slippery slope and given that for the TRAs we realise the end game is annihilation of women as a sex, I think transwomen is a step too far... it makes it easier for them to then take the next step....

I know you think you are being reasonable @MNHQ. But I am experiencing it as crazy making, both the Orwellian nature of being unable to state objective facts, and the lack of clarity you’re providing about what is and what is not acceptable. It’s really distressing

@AllyMcBeagle

So you can say it a bit but not too much. How much? How many times. Do tell.

I would like some clarity on this too please. Can I use it on my first reference to TWs in each post? Or can I use it once per thread? Do I have to check whether anyone else in the thread has used it?

I know this will sound like I am trying to be annoying but I have used these kinds of clarifications in the past - as some say, it helps cut down confusion with newbies and I have generally used 'transwoman' instead of the now banned term beginning with 'T' - but I was never worried before that my attempts to express myself clearly could lead to deletions/banning.

Ally please don't worry that you will be summarily banned. If you're clarifying in good faith that will be fine, and we'd always let you know about deletions and have a discussion with you before we suspended.

We'd much prefer it though, if you found ways to refer to trans people as a group which don't refer to natal sex, and as we move forward with moderating according to the new guidelines, we're likely to delete terms which do.

Oh my giddy aunt.

Go on then, Kate - give me such a term that does not involve coercing me to use terminology for the female sex.

There is no such term and gaslighting us into pretending that there is abusive of your gender critical users.

This is outrageous.

I am not using any terminology belonging to the female sex to refer to people who are not of the female sex. End of.

This is the gender critical position. You just banned it.

to be clear .... if transwoman was where we knew demands would stop - which is what I had envisaged until recently - I would happily use it as a term.....

I am not however ready to be a pawn in a long game which sees transwoman as starting to appropriate womanhood