Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

I would say transxy is good for tim and tranxx is good for tif.

Section 7 of Equality Act 2010 Gender Reassignment
A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

I always took this to mean someone who is entering the two year phase where they are 'living as the opposite sex' so that they can get their GRC. It seems fairly obvious as no one would be able to get a certificate otherwise. As there is no way of measuring this, it is now interpreted very liberally.

Maybe we should just keep TIM, TIF, TERF and cis? And everyone can lump it all round? Having read the thread I am going in this direction. If someone new comes along, at least you can see their colours nailed to their mast. I find all the convoluted terminology that is supposed to make something appear 'nice' very confusing to work out. And in time, these terms end up meaning what was banned in the first place, like any euphemism.

It is the intention, not the word that is the problem and you need a lot more nuance to weed out aggressive intention than a list of words.

Picasso, how do you distinguish between male and female transpeople if you can't use the terms male/female/man/woman?

I mean "transperson admitted to female ward" is all find and dandy if that transperson was born female; not so much if they were born male. How they identify is irrelevant; if born female they need treatment appropriate to the female body and so should be on a female ward, from a medical point of view.

It also makes confusing headlines: "transperson to be placed in people's prison" isn't exactly clear is it?

Sorry MadMags, I was being facetious. I think that the more militant TW would now deny that they are 'transitioning' away from anything at all - they were never male to begin with. I was just wondering how long it will take before the prefix becomes another 'unacceptable' word.

"As you know "gender reassignment" applies to both people with a GRC and people without. Under 3k biologically male people have a GRC so share the protected characteristic of sex as females with millions of women. The rest of the males with protected characteristic of gender reassignment share the protected characteristic of male sex with millions of men. Stop with this disingenuous sophistry."

That will depend on circumstances, I presume : there has been no test case. But that was not the point. Someone was claiming that the Equality Act 2010 refers to biological sex. I posted the evidence that it doesn't.

Can we jump into a time machine and go back to MTT and FTT? Or is the problem still that in time, these terms end up meaning what was banned in the first place, like any euphemism.

I don't think transxy or transxx cuts it for me.

It is not on the basis of ones chromosomes that we are privileged or oppressed, it is because we are male or female. Analysing sex and sexism, we need to use the words for sex - male and female. They should not be taboo words because some people have powerful delusions about their sex.

The words for sex - male and female, have a strong associated feeling, which is relevant to feminist analysis. XX & XY sanitises it out.

I find the term cis offensive, but I wouldn't report someone for using it or expect someone have their account deleted if they used it 3 times. They are using terms consistent with the ideology they follow, like a Christian might use the term 'soul' and these things are worth thrashing out.

Yy.

Lol
You posted your fantasy interpretation of the EA on Opposite Day in upside down world

If we use make and femakeceveryone means different things so discourse is impossible

Section 7 of Equality Act 2010 Gender Reassignment
A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

What, I wonder, are the "other attributes of sex", if not physiological?

And if anyone thinks I'm giving up the term woman or the term female, they will have to wrench then from my cold dead hand.

typos

If we use male and female everyone means different things so discourse is impossible is what I meant to say

So I would go for woman, male, female, man and transxx and transxy

But that was not the point. Someone was claiming that the Equality Act 2010 refers to biological sex. I posted the evidence that it doesn't.

You were suggesting that it applies to bio male people without GRC. It does not.

What, I wonder, are the "other attributes of sex", if not physiological?

Exactly and the example shows that other attributes can be social. Sex in the Equality Act 2010 is not biological sex.

The origin of the TERF acronym was always meant as a vicious put-down of gender critical feminists. Sometimes we laugh it off (like Tediously Explaining Real Facts), and sometimes it is clear that it has extra sting (like 'all TERFs should DIAF', good old witchburning, 21st century style).

Frankly, the terms should all stand. It makes it clear to everybody reading who is doing what to whom. Even 'cis' (and the reason they are pissy is because I called it for what it was - Compliant Individual Signaling). Women are cis-nothing. We are a reality. Not a costume some male puts on (or even on/off) at whim. We have a Herstory, and that is being born and raised as girls/females, within a patriarchical society. That does to a degree, shape us, and for some of us, shapes our resistance to that society.

I can see why Mumsnet are doing this. I can also see why it isn't going to work.

I detest the term cis, but I'm not calling for the deletion of posts containing it or the banning of people using it. Rather I would much prefer to have the opportunity to explain when it is used why I don't want to be referred to in that way and why it casts me as identifying with my own class oppression.

For the lurkers you know.

And if anyone thinks I'm giving up the term woman or the term female, they will have to wrench then from my cold dead hand.

Indeed. I don't care what language contortions I have to go into, I am not using the word "woman" or "female" in relation to male-born human beings ever.

Intent is what’s key. Almost any word can be a descriptor or an insult. Policing the language itself misses the point of the intent and is open to abuse.

Before you start banning people think about the volume of reports you got from twitter. It’ll take one determined person screen shotting and requesting mass reporting and you’ll get the regulars picked off. There are plenty of regular people on FWR who I disagree with about almost everything but I don’t want them banned - the debate is important.

I assume that it was written by a law person rather than a science person, and by physiological they actually mean anatomical, whereas by "other attributes" they mean things like hormonal therapy

Gibberty

If the law supposes that," said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, "the law is a ass — a idiot. If that's the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is, that his eye may be opened by experience — by experience.

Or the favoured 'transfolks'.

Yuck, I totally hate that. So 'folksy' or something. Harmless little fluffy bunnies, frolicking around. No!! They are stupid and childish with most of their language, I won't be stooping to that. Shit like 'top surgery' and 'bottom surgery'.

Use your effing words!
Genital surgery, breast enhancement/removal surgery.
None of this coy childish BS. We are not five years old.

Sex in the Equality Act 2010 is not biological sex.

Lol.

Gib : your interpretation is fatally flawed by the lack of a definition of sex, alternate to reproductive role.

The EA 2010 means reproductive role when it says 'sex'.

There is nothing else is could possibly mean.