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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 13/06/2018 09:31

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

OP posts:
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SuperLoudPoppingAction · 13/06/2018 15:01

Neutral pronouns confuse me.
My degree is in language and linguistics.
I mainly understand languages with gendered pronouns.
If I were to speak a language without gendered pronouns I would of course use those pronouns appropriate to the language.

I don't like the idea of pronouns signifying whether someone identifies as, for example, feminine because I know myself to be female and therefore use female pronouns.
The idea of my pronoun use signifying femininity upsets me. I'm not feminine. I am often misgendered. I have gender dysphoria.

To call someone 'they' or 'them' is very much like calling someone 'it'. It is dehumanising. It does not feel kind. I will avoid this where possible.

The lens I find most useful for viewing the world and for enacting social change is radical and indeed lesbian feminism.
It's helped me get over all sorts of trauma. It's led me to a life where I make a difference to women.

Not all people with gender dysphoria are part of a gender identity movement.

Some of us have different ideology and coping mechanisms.

It's not a case of not deferring to pronoun use in order to cause hurt.

It would cause me lasting distress to do it.

BeyondSceptical · 13/06/2018 15:03

So Elle, at the moment we have on one side:
Transgender status

And on the other:
Sex, BAME ESL speakers, disability, belief system and sexuality

Interesting...

Artemis7 · 13/06/2018 15:04

The DSM V states clearly that males who get off sexually by pretending to be females can be diagnosed as having gender dysphoria and so be called ‘transwomen’. The following are direct quotes from my copy of the DSM V, if MN should look at the DSM V and the pages referenced they will clearly see this to be the case. Why should any woman, much less a lesbian (who has no sexual interest in heterosexual males whatsoever) be forced to pretend these males are some kind of woman? These are heterosexual males with a fetish and need to be named as such, not allowing us to name males as males is shielding these males from being named for what they are.

From the DSM V:

Gender Dysphoria (p456)

" Adolescents and adults with late-onset gen­der dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement . The
majority of these individuals are gynephilic or sexually attracted to other posttransition
natal males with late-onset gender dysphoria. A substantial percentage of adult maleswith late-onset gender dysphoria cohabit with or are married to natal females. After gen­der transition, many self-identify as lesbian ."

"Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement."

P702-704 ‘Transvestic Disorder

Transvestic disorder occurs in heterosexual (or bisexual) adolescent and adult males (rarely in females) for whom cross-dressing behavior generates sexual excitement and causes distress and/or impairment without drawing their primary gender into question. It is occasionally accompanied by gender dysphoria. An individual with transvestic disorder who also has clinically significant gender dysphoria can be given both diagnoses. In many cases of late-onset gender dysphoria in gynephilic natal males, transvestic behavior with sexual excitement is a precursor .’

‘Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis Transvestic disorder in men is often accompanied by autogynephilia (i.e., a male’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman). Autogynephilic fantasies and behaviors may focus on the idea of exhibiting female physiological functions (e.g., lactation, menstruation), engaging in stereotypically feminine behavior (e.g., knitting), or possessing female anatomy (e.g., breasts).’

‘Specifiers

The presence of fetishism decreases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder. The presence of autogynephilia increases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder .’

daimbars · 13/06/2018 15:04

Agree with Rat - all the battles to pick, why pronouns. Refusing to use a person's preferred pronoun just comes across as spiteful and mean spirited.

RatRolyPoly · 13/06/2018 15:04

To call someone 'they' or 'them' is very much like calling someone 'it'. It is dehumanising.

Except the reason "it" is dehumanising is that it is the word we use to refer to inanimate objects and "things".

"They/them" are words we use only to refer to people - humans - (and sometimes anthropomorphised animals). So it is not dehumanising in the same way at all.

So sorry, don't buy that.

They/them should be acceptable.

GibbertyFlibbert · 13/06/2018 15:05

"In every other clash: This is MY house/no, it is MY house, society adjudicates."

Agreed and society is doing that by giving female passports and driving licences to trans women - and birth certificates fully recognising their female sex in due course. (Mutatis mutandis for men)

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 13/06/2018 15:07

"They/them" are words we use only to refer to people - humans - (and sometimes anthropomorphised animals). So it is not dehumanising in the same way at all."

I like Polo mints. They are delicious. I could eat them all day.

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 15:07

It's an absolute own-goal for feminists to make a stand on the issue of pronouns

Actually it makes perfect sense. It's the thing that makes the most sense, for us to resist pronoun use. That's why sooooo much endless stress is placed on this by TRA. If it didn't matter, they wouldn't bother. Well, it matters as much to us as it does to them. And we're allowed to prioritise what matters to us Smile

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 13/06/2018 15:08

Actually finding this distressing so bowing out.

If there's ever a good answer to my question about lesbian self definition please could someone lesbian-friendly and autistic-person-friendly PM me?

birdbandit · 13/06/2018 15:09

A personal plea to @JustineMumsnet please do not delete the transwidows thread, it has been an absolute lifeline to me to find other women who have been and are in the same situation as myself.

JuzzaL · 13/06/2018 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RatRolyPoly · 13/06/2018 15:10

I like Polo mints. They are delicious. I could eat them all day.

I was just thinking "only" was going too far!

But undoubtedly "them/they" are already used comfortably when referring to human beings, whereas "it" is not.

So I stand by my point that one is not at all dehumanising in the same way as the other, as one is already comfortably used to describe humans with no-one crying "dehumaniser" over it!

Catskill · 13/06/2018 15:14

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns, or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them

@MNHQ this literally says that any use of any pronouns - 'right' or 'wrong', preferred or otherwise, is hurtful. Either this is not what you intended to write (in which case you need to copyedit a bit more carefully so 99% of posts aren't deleted due to a misplaced comma in your guidelines) or it will truly be impossible to post coherently about nearly anything.

Are pronouns in general actually hurtful now, or are you referring to a specific use of them?

Elletorro · 13/06/2018 15:14

BeyondSceptical

Sex, race (ESL), belief, religion(I believe it’s important to Muslims to identify by biological sex), disability (autism), sexuality(lesbians)

And now SuperLoud who embodies many of these protected characteristics self excludes due to the hostile environment it has created.

We absolutely need this adjudicated.

RatRolyPoly · 13/06/2018 15:15

Pratchet if you and whoever else you're referring to with your "we" would like to prioritise pronouns I would really have to question what motivates that. If the aim is not to acquiesce to transgender ideology, "they/them/their" would suffice. To the casual observer the most obvious reason to go further would be to antagonise...

It's the thing that makes the most sense, for us to resist pronoun use.

You haven't articulated why it's so important; so much more important in fact than freeing women from the disadvantage of unconscious bias and stereotyping Confused

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 15:15

Why on earth do you think pronouns are allowed to matter to trans people, and not to feminists? That's a terrible double standard. Looks like hypocrisy.

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 15:16

TRA: Pronouns are very important
Feminists: We agree!
TRA: Now that's just silly. Shush.

Bowlofbabelfish · 13/06/2018 15:23

They and them are not dehumanising - it is.

Does that dentist I saw last time still work here? they did my last filling...
Does that dentist I saw last time still work here? It did my last filling.

RatRolyPoly · 13/06/2018 15:24

Why on earth do you think pronouns are allowed to matter to trans people, and not to feminists?

Pronouns should matter to feminists; it should be of particular importance to muddy the fuck out of them so they stop being a reliable give-away of someone's sex/gender so that women can stop not getting jobs because of them!

Transpeople can care about them too; they have their reasons. What are yours?

JuzzaL · 13/06/2018 15:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SporadicSpartacus · 13/06/2018 15:25

@SuperLoudPoppingAction and others interested - I have started a thread for autistic GC women:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276831-The-Gender-Critical-Autistic-Women-s-Thread?watched=1

RatRolyPoly · 13/06/2018 15:26

Using incorrect pronouns is a lie.

...and neutral pronouns?

daimbars · 13/06/2018 15:29

Catskill Mumsnet is saying it won't tolerate the use of a pronoun a trans person has rejected. For example the trans teenager Jazz Jennings is repeatedly called 'he' on here. Same with Lily Madigan, she is often referred to on here by her 'deadname' and called 'he'.

BarrackerBarmer · 13/06/2018 15:29

On pronouns;
Feminists: We don't believe in gender, but in sex. Female is a sex not a gender. Giving any credence to the idea of female gender identity harms the female sex.
TRAs: Show your submission to me and my ideology by publicly acknowledging my female gender identity.

It's about submission. Gender identity taking precedence over sex.

RatRolyPoly · 13/06/2018 15:31

Barracker, even if I agreed with you, in what way would it be submitting to that ideology to use a neutral pronoun?