Some topics not showing up in searches

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Specifically anything in Feminism has stopped showing up in the "Last Hour" or "Last 15 minutes" search.

I know they are there and I know there are recent posts so why don't they show?

Yes this is happening to me. Don't think I've hidden any topics.

Suspicious, no?

I experimented

I compared the time of the last post in Active v the most recent post in Feminism Chat and nothing was showing in Active that you would expect to be able to see.

Then I did a trial post and that also did not show up

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3218824-In-Active

Is it happening with any other topics?

Hi all

Yes, we've excluded FWR from Active for a bit to see if it helps to take the heat out of the situation I posted about over here, and which was discussed by MNers over here. We think it might help reduce goady visits and general antagonism - as you know, it's critical that the debate remains calm and civilised at the moment so we're seeing what works. We'll reevaluate in a week or so.

Cheers
MNHQ

I see the aim, Kate. Thank you for trying to protect our discussions.

I have to say I've been impressed at the calm and intelligent way the visitors were met and chatted with.

Calm calm calm.

@KateMumsnet

Is it worth, as someone suggested, having a pinned post at the top of FWR?

Furthermore, might a thread discussing the wording of such a pinned post, be a good idea? In terms of demonstrating the goodwill of posters, and the desire to frame this issue around women's rights as opposed to the (often wrongly assumed) objections to trans people?

We have had some new posters recently, who are so grateful for the opportunity to finally talk, that they sometimes go off alarming with no filter.

Personally I think a pinned post would be a good idea to indicate to newbies and outsiders that objections are based on the implications to women and girls - hence 'feminism and women's rights'.

And maybe HQ possibly starting a thread asking for suggestions would unite people in the eventual outcome. And make everyone understand exactly why it's become necessary.

I like this idea, Datun. Such a pinned post could also signpost the LGBT Parents and LGBT Kids areas of the site so that newbies who want to talk about the many important trans issues that aren't related to feminism would find the best home for what they want to say?

Hi Datun - if we pin something it would have to be dire warnings a strong reminder about sticking within TGs and the terms of civilized debate. But there's certainly nothing stopping like-minded MNers from collaborating on a plain-English explanation of the issue as they see it, and agreeing to link to that OP near the beginning of each new thread.

Sorry - should have said 'collaborating on a plain-English explanation of the issue as they see it, aimed at newcomers to MN or to the debate'

I think it is a great shame that this was not discussed in Site Issues, as changes to topics normally would be.

It is, in effect, enforcing 'hide topic' on the rest of MN based on discussions within one topic only. That's a new way of going about things, and not one I welcome.

AuntieStella

This IS site issues? (Or site stuff). Or perhaps I've misunderstood your post?

KateMumsnet

I understand what you're saying. And we could, of course, copy an agreed upon post at the beginning of each new thread.

But, firstly that feels little clunky, but more, I can see it becoming an instant de-rail, every time. With fresh people having an opinion and everyone having to bang on about it all over again.

I don't see any problem with a timely reminder or dire warnings as a pinned post?

Most women are going to abide by them in order to keep the space.

Your guidelines, I realise, are necessarily a little ambivalent sometimes. Because it's all down to context, opinion and one's own discretion.

So hard and fast rules shouldn't, in all honesty, be that necessary.

I was thinking of something along the lines of

"We know people want to discuss this subject and, of course, we advocate for free speech on this, as on any other subject.

Mumsnet is a huge site and we largely allow people to self regulate.

As this is a sensitive issue, with a fast moving narrative, we ask that you not only stay within talk guidelines, but perhaps consider that what you do say might result in issue of more talk guidelines. It means you regulate, so we don't have to.

Much as we'd like to, we cannot be more specific as we can't see into the future and only react on a case by case basis."

If you can see holes in that statement, which is very likely, perhaps my suggestion of a thread to invite ideas makes more sense?

You could even say you're asking for ideas but aren't promising or making any guarantees that anything will come of it.

Cover all the bases.

If you really don't think it's a good idea, then obviously you're in a position to know that for sure.

I just want to to support you to support us, to support you to support us.

I agree, I can see any post created to link to at the start of threads becoming its own derailed battle ground. Unless someone diligently filled it with cakes and gin to 1k posts.

Yes, you've misunderstood.

MNHQ's post on this thread linked two threads, neither in Site Issues, where the desirability of a change was discussed. It was not discussed in Site Issues before the change which makes it quite different from other changes to topics,

I think if you're going to have a pinned guidelines post it should contain examples of this is OK to say and this isn't. To show what phrasing is OK and what's not.

You are doing a great job @MNHQ - I think hiding the Active threads is a good idea if it works, plus perhaps saying that any post must be centred around "What about the women and children" otherwise it's not welcome in FWR. But I suspect —you-- we will need to police it heavily for a while until the trolls go away. ps why doesn't strike thru work for me have tried - and — and neither works?

And really we all know the problem isn't in here but is being orchestrated from outside and so more guidelines kind of misses the point I think. MN is being targeted and its the pattern of bullying orchestrated by rogue accounts that I would like to see policed - not the women reacting to the abuse. Sure you can mod any overt stuff but much is, as said earlier, the fact that women are being gaslighted into rage from all sides out there.

The covert bullying consists of the unrelenting, constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool you into believing the criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication
• simultaneous with the criticism, a constant refusal to acknowledge you and your contributions and achievements or to recognise your existence and value e.g. never any mention of the abuse of women and children
• constant attempts to undermine you and your position, status, worth, value and potential - well targeting MN is an example of this

What I despair of @MNHQ is that you are the police - just as in the dynamics of DV, women are provoked by the drip, drip of the above tactics - the police have to be trained in those dynamics so they can spot the abuser - because the woman can look like the problem because she's beside herself i.e. enraged, due to the unrelenting provocation and control, whereas the cause i.e. the offender, is the calm one saying "look it's her who's the problem not me". Have MN mods had training from DV specialists in Coercive Control because if not, it would be a great thing to organise? Can you offer assurances about this - it must occur on other parts of the site so can't just be not an issue in FWR.

Also are the OPs who use those tactics being punished? Are the Sealions getting consequences? And if not why not? It's easy to focus on angry women but actually they are not the source of the problem. I can tell you 3 sealions right now….

And why can't MN offer a robust defence against trolls? We know what they are saying about MN is lies so why pretend otherwise?

Summary I really don't know what the root cause of the problem from MN's perspective is and am guessing - is it workload and /or is it "heat" and if heat who from? How can we help you other than what we are already doing, because - as you know - we can't control out there…..

I understand why you've done this and I support your action. You must be under incredible pressure to shut this down and I'm grateful every day that you haven't

I desperately hope it's a temporary measure though.

I'm not happy with no FWR threads showing in active. The FWR topic has been so instrumental in consciousness raising among a whole new generation of women who didn't come to MN for feminism in the first place but just stumbled across a thread. It would be incredibly sad to lose that.

Also it makes it far more likely people will start 'not another trans thread' elsewhere on the site. IME the average AIBU poster is far less invested in keeping the discussion civil than are FWR regulars who understand what we might lose.

I like Datun's idea of a sticky and I think that's good wording. It needs to be left non-specific but give the message - please take extra care when discussing this topic.

What about limiting posting on FWR to people who've been here a certain amount of time like we do on the sex topic?

I like your wording Datun. It seems fair to have a reiteration of the guidelines in a topic where feelings have been shown to run very high in discussions.

Hi all

Yes, completely understand that the post idea mightn’t suit, sorry - was just a quick sugg which I thought might also underline the fact that it really is down to MNers now. I won’t bang on about the same stuff again, but the bottom line is that the overall tone has to change quickly if we’re going to be able to continue to host the debate. The topic takes a huge portion of our pot of moderation resources (as we’re always banging on, sorry) - but the disappointing truth is that it hasn’t actually worked; we haven’t been able to shift the tone - hence our final pleas to self-moderate over the weekend.

On which note, please don’t discount the option to report posts which you think might jeopardise the space for the many - there’s no shame in supporting the sentiment but not the expression of it.

Also are the OPs who use those tactics being punished? Are the Sealions getting consequences? And if not why not?

We apply the same principles universally. But I’ve also got to gently challenge the assumption that people who hold a contrary view are necessarily trolls or sealioning; it seems to me that if this is a default position, things will escalate very quickly.

Please do also take on board the fact that the combative tone isn’t just in relation to goady posts or trolls - the majority of deletions take place in discussions where there isn’t a debate or conflict. It’s a root and branch problem.

Datum, that’s an excellent post and we’d give you a job any day . We’ll have a think about a sticky - we’re going to have a look at things in a week or so and evaluate where we’re at.

Thanks all
MNHQ

If Datun and Rat agree on something then do it!

@KateMumsnet - We apply the same principles universally. But I’ve also got to gently challenge the assumption that people who hold a contrary view are necessarily trolls or sealioning; it seems to me that if this is a default position, things will escalate very quickly.

I think this is unfair.

Yes there has been a problem with tone because there are people on all sides of this debate that are bloody fucking angry and scared their rights are being taken away.

However, my impression over the last few days is that regular posters have been going above and beyond to allow a massive amount of leeway to new MN members who have contrary views because we need this debate.

In multiple threads we are told by some new members that we are 'anti-trans' and 'transphobic', that we are linking to 'hate sites', that we are making 'ridiculous claims', that we have been 'invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information', that we have 'hatred for trans people', that we 'attack trans people', that we are 'telling lies' etc etc etc.

In the face of this provocation I have repeatedly seen regular FWR posters calmly stepping past personal attacks and engaging in a spirit of TGLWGH because we need this debate.

I don't know how many of these provocative posts have been reported. I haven't reported any because we need this debate and it would be useless to be left with swiss cheese or have whole threads deleted where the debate is actually happening (i.e. where we are attempting to engage with people with contrary views).

So I'd like to gently challenge the assumption that there is a default position among FRW posters that anyone posting a contrary view is regarded as a troll or a sealion. There are actually trolls and sealions posting, as well as new posters with no ulterior motive but with political opinions that some of us feel are deeply unpalatable and harmful to our own rights and the rights of our children.

There seem to be relatively few deletions, even on the most contentious of recent threads, certainly compared with some past debates on MN on all sorts of topics, so I find it difficult to believe that the same principles are being applied universally. I understand why, and I understand why you might be unable or unwilling to comment on that further, but as far as I can see this is not business as usual.

TL;DR - I understand you are under pressure and I'm grateful for the debate but please give us a bit of credit here, we're doing our best.

P.S. yes, give Datun a job!

@KateMumsnet

Thanks for that!

The problem is that a combative tone isn't against the rules, it's found on loads of boards, particularly AIBU.

You're struggling to identify exactly how people are breaking the rules. But you know it's time intensive for you.

You want people to self regulate without guidance on what that self-regulation entails.

And you're also struggling, I believe, to explain exactly how this pressure on you is being manifested. (Which would really help, in terms of the self-regulation - this isn't most of these women's first rodeo).

You are in control of this website. And as long as nothing is demonstrably transphobic or law breaking, you can decide what you do with it.

If there is some kind of extra pressure, that means you can't do that, but at the same time you can't feed that information through to members, it's going to be really hard to ask them to self regulate.

They can't avoid breaking rules that they don't know are there.

It feels as though we're being set up to fail.

If it's just a question of people reporting posts, and the judgement on whether those posts are okay or not is taking too long, then the message should be stop reporting posts when it's not really necessary!

Please think about giving people the chance to help here. But also giving them the tools with which to do it.

Ask for self regulation, but try and be more explicit.

Believe me, no one here is surprised you are being targeted. It was predictable and inevitable.

But you can work around it.

AuntieStella

Ah, ok. Got it now.

We’ll have a think about a sticky - we’re going to have a look at things in a week or so and evaluate where we’re at.

I think a sticky would help enormously, if at all possible.

MNHQ.

the bottom line is that the overall tone has to change quickly if we’re going to be able to continue to host the debate. The topic takes a huge portion of our pot of moderation resources (as we’re always banging on, sorry) - but the disappointing truth is that it hasn’t actually worked; we haven’t been able to shift the tone - hence our final pleas to self-moderate over the weekend.

It's a big worry.

Is this effectively hiding the entire FWR board from the rest of MN?

I know many on the main board want all trans threads hidden; they've got that now, haven't they?

By specifically choosing to hide all FWR threads, MN are silencing women. That's such a shame.

If a board is to be hidden because of "overall tone" you could start with AIBU . But you won't.

I don't believe MNHQ actually want to hide the whole feminist topic from active conversations. They must be under extreme pressure. I'm not at all surprised though.

This is how it works.

It's far easier to hide FRW than it is to stand up to these bullies. Just like it's far easier to just not have women's groups or lesbian venues or whatever than to try to use the exceptions in the EA. I'll be surprised if any political party has AWS in a years time because that's all a bit difficult too.

Our views are 'problematic'. That's the long and short of it.

@KateMumsnet

Thx for the update.

I am going to keep going until I understand the problem - so the problem is The topic takes a huge portion of our pot of moderation resources (as we’re always banging on, sorry) - but the disappointing truth is that it hasn’t actually worked; we haven’t been able to shift the tone - hence our final pleas to self-moderate over the weekend.

Firstly it's taking a lot of moderation resources - I thought so - and this is the MO of Sealions - they overwhelm with trivial complaints. Is it genuine MNers doing the reporting or is it the Sealions causing you more work and hassle? Have you analysed which accounts are complaining? I know I don't complaint much, even when provoked, as I don't want to increase your workload but maybe that works against us.

On which note, please don’t discount the option to report posts which you think might jeopardise the space for the many - there’s no shame in supporting the sentiment but not the expression of it.

So do you want us to report Sealions more - I assume yes so will start doing. And with Sealions it's not just the comment reported but a pattern of covert bullying remarks consisting of dismissing others concerns, falsely accusing others(Transphobia), criticism that is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication - hence why I ignore them.

We can't control the amount of reporting unfortunately but you can by deleting those Sealion accounts - really this is where discernment comes in re genuine OPs - the 3 accounts that I can give you are not genuine - they post long screeds from documents as part of their MO, often assert they "abused", other people are Transphobic etc When in fact the opposite is true - they are treated with courtesy despite extreme provocation.

Also are the OPs who use those tactics being punished? Are the Sealions getting consequences? And if not why not?

We apply the same principles universally. But I’ve also got to gently challenge the assumption that people who hold a contrary view are necessarily trolls or sealioning; it seems to me that if this is a default position, things will escalate very quickly.

What @PencilsInSpace said - these are not people who just have opposite views - it may look like that on the surface but in fact there're "concern trolls". Your comment makes me think that the mods don't understand the different types of trolling. Happy to help out….It's the pattern of their comments- not just one - one comment can look relatively harmless but over time, their covert bullying is obvious to those who understand coercive control (hence my previous remarks). Their bullying is not overt but covert.

Please do also take on board the fact that the combative tone isn’t just in relation to goady posts or trolls - the majority of deletions take place in discussions where there isn’t a debate or conflict. It’s a root and branch problem.

I personally need more information on this - an example of phrasing that is OK and isn't - then the self policing can be more effective

Thanks again to you all