A typical mumsnet debate???

[tiktok]

Anyone recognise the shape of a thread (I am omitting details)

OP: I am doing something with my child that is not what planned to do, but it is something I have ended up doing because of circumstances. Now, I feel like a rubbish mother because it is not what other people say I ought to do. Please, is there anyone with experience who can tell me it's ok to be doing this?

Various posters: Yes, it's fine, I did this and my kids are wonderful and everything in my garden is rosy. Don't listen to people who tell you not to do this thing.

Other various posters: What you do is your own business, and of course you are not rubbish, and many people have been in that situation. But you should know that if you continue doing what you are doing, XYZ might happen. If you are fine about XYZ happening, then of course that's ok. But from your post, it appears as if XYZ is not what you wanted to happen.

Other other various posters: Bish Bash Bosh! The OP doesn't want to know all that! She wants fluffy kittens and lovely stuff! You are all very smug! Bish Bash Bosh! And anyway, XYZ didn't happen to me!

Other various posters again: But the OP is not the only one reading this - she needs to know about XYZ, and so do other people who come on here and lurk, now and in the future.

Other other other various posters: You are being horrible to the OP - she wants fluffy kittens and starlight, with added chocolate! And sugar sprinkles!

OP: some of you are horrible, and I didn't want this horrible argument....it's made me feel worse.

Other various posters again: oh dear....this is the internet and these things happen. Soz.

Other other other various posters : See what you have done with your decision to withhold the fluffyness?? Yah boo nasty smug people !

well tiktok, i normally try to steer clear of bf/ff threads but as you started this one.....

i have to admit that my thoughts as i was reading the tread you are referring to were "thank goodness you weren't my midwife when i was trying desperately (and failing) to feed ds1 and 2".

even reading your posts on the thread brought back those feelings of uselessness and failure

you give me the impression that you think anyone can bf if they really want to and those who aren't successful haven't tried hard enough.

Sorry you feel that way, frazzledfairy.

I am not a midwife.

Please tell me where I give the impression I think anyone can bf if they really want to, and that those who are not successful haven't tried enough - this is absolutely not what I think, and I thought I made that clear on that thread and on others....maybe you have mixed me up with someone else?

But anyway - let me know where I haven't been clear about it, on that thread alone, if you want, and I will try to change the way I express myself.

It would be really helpful to me if you could point me to something I have said that gives the wrong impression - I try to remind people at all times that breastfeeding is not a question of trying hard enough, or that anyone can do it - I have gone back to the thread and I don't say, or give the impression, of anything of the sort, and there are some posts where I am pretty clear that the opposite is the case (ie that it needs a lot of help and support and knowledge which is not there for everyone).
So help me out here, won't you

as a first time mum, and like an earlier poster i was obsessed. yes obsessed with bf, i had no idea that ff would lead to less bf,, the info i got from mn was invaluable

frazzledfairy, you're really, really wide of the mark there. i'm often to be found jumping all over people who automatically talk about ff as a choice and who give the impression that trying harder would have worked. 9 times out of 10 by the time i've huffed and puffed my way through a post tiktok has got there before me and serenely explained that not all women can bf. truly, what you say in yor last post is Just Wrong.

Tiktok, thanks for saying that you don't believe all women can bf. I think that was what was really hard for me, the thought that I just hadn't tried hard enough and to be honest I searched for that kind of reassurance and didn't get it from anywhere at the time.

Sometimes I don't think this is said enough so thank you.

twofalls, i felt exactly the same, and i also searched for reassurance and eventually found some at a specialist bfing unit, but it was only after much heartache. then found this place, had a brief conversation with tiktok and realised that if i'd only asked here in the first place i would have got the answers i was looking for without all the pain and worry.

let's face it,of all the women in the world who can't bf (and it's only really a very small percentage) and also would be breaking there heart over it (a smaller percentage still, i'm guessing) and have broadband (ever smaller) there's a good chance we'll turn up here or somewhere like it as we'll be the ones looking for answers on the internet, iykwim? so in a way i think that there are probably a disproportionate amount of 'unable to bfers' on MN than in the general population because there's every chance it's how we came to be here in the first place. frankly MNHQ's business model is stuffed without the bfing fuckups like us!

i think this is why i steer clear of bf/ff threads! am probably far too hypersensitive about it.

i didn't mean midwife, my mistake, i meant bf counsellor (brain is fuggy today and i'm knackered, am pg with no3).

i think the reason you brought back all those awful memories was the constant talking about how ff was so inferior to bm. something that someone who has not managed to bf absolutely does not need to hear.

and i just thought thank god my bf counsellor eventually gave me a huge hug and said 'i think you've done all you can' and accepted that i was finished mentally and physically. because i think if i had continued i would have had some sort of breakdown.

maybe i have confused you with someone else, i don't have the energy to go back over the thread, but i do apologise if i have

i am off to collapse in bed now, and never show my face on a bf thread again (unless it's in 6 months time when i'm desperately trying to feed no3!_

see you then, frazzled!

I explain what you need to breastfeed on that 'other' thread - I say "Feeding - however it's done - is more than just a way of getting milk into babies. It impacts on many parts of life, and breastfeeding requires a leap of confidence and a supportive cultural and emotional context that is often not present, and an understanding that's been lost...plus expert help with the physical problems that can arise with it."

All, or some, or even one or two, elements on that list are missing for many women. In addition, there is a very small percentage of women who have physically unsurmountable difficulties, and who would find it too much to supply all their babies' milk needs without supplementing (though many of them can partially breastfeed, but they may choose not to, and that is fine).

You can throw crappy birth experiences into the pot, babies who are very, very prem, or sick, or sleepy....and you get a long list of obstacles.

I hope frazzled will do me the courtesy of reading what I have said, and maybe re-think her accusation, or else back it up with something.

And thanks for the support, Aitch

frazzled, my post X'd with yours.

You made an unfair accusation, and I accept your apology.

In a one-to-one counselling situation, any talk of formula and breastmilk as a comparison would be out of place...I really did not talk 'constantly' of inferior formula, and only used the word after someone else had used it and someone else had countered it!

I really hope you feel better soon...no one knows better than breastfeeding counsellors how sad feeding can make women

As always Tiktok,your posts are so acccurate,thoughtful and perceptive.

I really think we all need to understand the endless possibilities and limitations of t'Internet.

The most important thing to remember is that if you ask for advice/feedback YOU WILL HEAR STUFF THAT YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO HEAR OR LIKE TO HEAR.

If that is the case,step away from the computer now.

Moondog - usually I would agree with you. In this case I think teh proviso 'there is a time and place' kicks in.

The OP was clearly in a delicate place. The point was made, very nicely and effectively that there was no guarantee that her supply would continue to support mixed feeding. All fine and dandy. What followed was highly regrettable imvho!

I also think that the 'got to have a full on breastfeeding is best campaign on every breastfeeding or indeed mixed or formula feeding thread, lest some poor uneducated sod should come along and read this thread in the archives' is wearing a bit thin. But that is just my own personal view and no doubt others would see things differently.

When a thread goes badly wrong like the one referred to here and someone in a very delicate state is affected by that, I think everyone concerned should examine the role they played in what went wrong, rather than blithely write it off as 'a typical mn debate'. Of course it will be typical as long as everyone involved displays the same behaviours over and over again!

Personally, the advantage of posting on a forum for advice is that you get professional advice and personal experiences.

IME, when i've asked for b/f advice, I've returned to the thread a number of times to re-read the different information given.

The professional advice was evenhanded.

Tiktok gives great advice (it's the second time I've said it today). I agree with everything Lulumama says. (well, on this thread anyway)

PMSL @ fio being either fluffly kittened, or indeed lucky enough to live a life that was sheltered (alas not an option for some of us, including fio). Otherwise agree with the wonderfully named dogsbollox

Fio, you know very well I explained that 'sheltered life' was a joke which was meant to remind you that you hadn't met everyone else in the world.....

Bloody hell, people are touchy about f* all....

Touchy about f* all eh?

speaks volumes about MN recently.

Esp. those who have been here some time ( tiktok & fio and everone slese included, no bias here) seem to think their voice carries weight, therefore alright to criticise in an ill considered way.

Aitch, you are so right. I never met so many in rl. They were either the "I just pop the baby on and they feed in 10 mins" types, the "gosh, I had loads of problems but we just preserved" types or the "I can't be bothered with all that types". I could have done with finding MN a bit earlier I think to meet the other emotionally distraught bf fuckups!

Oh, and I agree with you dogsbollox.

I'm a 'pop them on' person pretty much but my sister was a distraught bf f*ckup...twice and I felt her pain. The thing is my sister put herself through hell but she needed top class advice even if it wouldn't work for her because she was determined to try her best. If a million people told her mixed feeding was fine she wouldn't believe it anyway. So I think most people need all the facts aswell as emotional support.

Maybe I am being a bit slow this morning - is FFF saying I criticise in an ill-considered way because I've been here a while?

Can't think of any occasions when I have done this, as the (very) occasional criticism is always well-considered and only ever in response to unfairness, rudeness, pomposity and deliberate pontificating from a position of ignorance.

If you don't do any of them, you are safe from my thunderous rage

This thread has inspired me to start another one - won't muddy the waters by adding it here as a diversion.