Suicide threat, distressed poster

[picklemepopcorn]

In chat, just posted.

[runwalkrun]

I think MN were right to delete it.
I read somewhere that suicidal thoughts can be 'catching', (especially among younger people) similar to how an anxious person can, unintentionally make another person feel anxious, especially if that person is already prone to anxious thoughts in the first place.

I've probably explained it very clumsily, but you get the picture.
No doubt MN have guided the OP to the right people.

[Viviennemary]

I can see why so many posters think those threads should stand. But on balance I think it is right they are deleted. Because of the reasons stated. Posters though well meaning giving wrong advice, triggers for other people with suicidal thoughts and the problem of trolls. And the Samaritans are there to help people and have more experience.

[RidingWindhorses]

I feel very torn about this. I have a suicidal relative. The crisis team are useless. The Samaritans often seem to be reading off a script. There is no help in A and E, and sitting for hours and hours with drunk people when you’re in that state, waiting to be seen is intolerable. GPS don’t care and just dole out antidepressants. I actually think talking to a range of people, some of whom have experienced being suicidal and come through it could be enormously helpful. However I also see how traumatic and potentially damaging it could be for both the poster and respondents. It’s very hard to know what’s best.

I agree. The idea that professional help is readily available or even helpful is unfortunately rather a myth. The problem is that some threads could go ok and that's all to the good, but if one went wrong it could be disastrous.

[RidingWindhorses]

So I can see it from both sides.

[SunnySkiesSleepsintheMorning]

Someone who is suicidal immediate intent can be compared to a heart attack if we are talking about posting about it online. Jane posts saying she’s having online and Julie posts that she’s depressed and has X amount of tablets in front of her, You can say the wrong thing to a person with chest pain e.g. “take some gaviscon” and you can say the wrong with to a person who is suicidal. I don’t even know how to give an example because triggers are so individual which is what makes it so difficult. Even professionals can - and do - get it wrong.

[RunningOutOfCharge]

runwalk are you thinking of the swedish twins when you say it can be transferred?

[Battleax]

That makes a lot of sense ubiquity. Some of that had never occurred to me.

[clairethewitch70]

The Samaritans were total shit when I needed them (might not be for everyone). I ended up in hospital twice after attempts. If I was on MN then, I would have begged for help here.

[Redglitter]

The Samaritans I spoke to sounded uninterested, had nothing constructive to say and realistically will have forgotten about me within a matter of hours. You can really see who has used these services and who hasn't on this thread

Totally agree with this. I phoned them once and it was the most frustrating experience. I can honestly say it was of no benefit to me whatsoever.

[RedDogsBeg]

You can say the wrong thing to someone even when talking face to face and they have the benefit of hearing your tone of voice and seeing your facial expression because you have no idea how their brain is processing what you are saying.

It is impossible, as is evidenced here daily, to read tone on a Chat Forum, it is easy for a poster to misinterpret or read something between the lines of the post.

Posters may think they can help or save someone but MNHQ took professional advice on this issue and quite rightly implemented that advice.

[namechange987]

I started a thread earlier this year when I was on the brink of suicide. It was deleted and MN sent a generic email about getting help elsewhere. In my mental state at that time, the email came across as "you're too fucked up to be on our website and we don't want you upsetting our readers". I cried in response to the email and considered suicide even more strongly as the one avenue I had for support had been taken away. Luckily, a reader sent me a private message and we chatted and she helped a lot.

I understand the reasons for deleting the threads discussed above, but what about the risks of that?

[RedDogsBeg]

And what about the risks of keeping them up namechange987? It's an incredibly difficult and emotive decision which is why MNHQ took the advice of professionals on their policy.

[RunningOutOfCharge]

It’s going round in circles and pointless as the policy won’t be changed

And most of us are happy with that

[runwalkrun]

runwalk are you thinking of the swedish twins when you say it can be transferred?

I was thinking of Bridgend.

[namechange987]

I know RedDogs, and I'm not disagreeing with that. But the current policy, which seems very dismissive to those who ARE suicidal, seems a greater risk. I'm not saying that they should all be kept up, but perhaps the wording of the dismissive email to posters needs a revision. Rather than effectively sending suicidal posters away, it might be more helpful to signpost them to Samaritans and other sources AND advise them that they can start a new thread asking for support but stipulating what is and isn't allowed in the context of suicide. Their current email made me feel unwelcome on MN.

[Butterymuffin]

This is a difficult issue but one thing that does come out of it for me is that there really is a need for professional, paid overnight moderation, so that volunteers aren't having to deal with incredibly sensitive threads and deletion decisions. MN have decided they don't want to pay for that, but I continue to think there's a case for it.

[LoverOfCake]

Mn is not a suicide support forum and neither should it be. The members here are not equipped or qualified to deal with apparently suicidal posters and as such these threads should be taken down.

Added to which, the idea that mumsnet could or should be seen as someone's only support forum in the whole wide world, and that mumsnetters are potentially the only people who can be there for a suicidal poster is arrogant in the extreme. Added to which, the reality is that for many, the motivation will not be about helping the poster but to feed their own rescuer complexes.

In addition, we have no idea who any of the names on this screen are. Someone posting that they are suicidal could just be someone seeking attention, seeing whether or not they might get any responses, and equally the respondents could be anyone or no-one.

And no, MN HQ do not have a duty to report any of these threads to the police.

They have taken professional advice from MH charities on whether these threads should be left to stand, and the unanimous feedback has been that they should not.

[surferjet]

Absolutely right that suicide threads are deleted. The internet is not the right place for people who are so mentally ill.
What’s to stop a few trolls coming online & encouraging her? didn’t that happen on FB not too long ago?
The Samaritans might not be everyone’s saviour, but they’re better than the internet.
And as hard as this may sound - if suicide threads were allowed, many posters ( & advitisers ) would leave.

[RedDogsBeg]

namechange987 sorry you felt you were unwelcome on MN, but your interpretation of that e-mail proves my point of how difficult it is to word a written communication to someone in distress. Also, your suggestion that MN advise posters of what is and isn't allowed in the context of suicide could be used as a 'How to Guide' for posters with dubious intent.

This wasn't a decision MNHQ took lightly and they took it after speaking extensively to Mental Health charities.

LoverOfCake I agree with your post.

[KateMumsnet]

Hello all

Thanks for all your feedback on this. As a few of you have mentioned, we took advice from MIND and the Samaritans on this terribly difficult issue, as we were very aware that we didn't have the necessary expertise. We felt it was too much to ask our mod team to make a call on each individual thread, and we were also concerned to reduce the possible impact on the lovely MNers who try so hard to help folks in real difficulties.

Those organisations recommended that we remove posts which mention a proposed method, because of the possibility that this might tip others who are also feeling suicidal into acting on those feelings. So now, if someone does this, we post a link to our mental health advice and to the Samaritans, and we remove the thread. We also get in touch with them directly with the same links and advice about getting RL help.

If the OP doesn't mention a method, we tend to post the same links on the thread, but leave it up - and of course we keep a very close eye from that point.

It's a very difficult area, obviously, and we're sorry to anyone who's found this particular thread or others distressing. We're meeting with MIND again soon and we will definitely be discussing this then.

edited by MNHQ to correct the use of 'ideation'

[Wolfiefan]

I am pretty certain i have seen threads deleted when there has been no mention of method. Just suicide.
Of course this shouldn't be a place to discuss how to do it. But why can't we offer a place people can offload and maybe be directed to RL help.

[StrangeLookingParasite]

The internet is not the right place for people who are so mentally ill.

Wow. Your compassion just shines through, doesn't it.

[reachforthestarseveryday]

I feel awful that this was deleted. She reached out and was turned away?!

MN is appropriate. it is not staffed with experts on mental health and being suicidal! There are other options - such as Samaritans - for the OP. I agree with MN here. tricky decision.