Suicide threat, distressed poster

[picklemepopcorn]

In chat, just posted.

[madwoman1ntheatt1c]

I have a few online forums that I refer to (and that I have referred people to) in instances of mental health crisis. I have a friend who has been suicidal on and off for a long time. There are lots of online resources that people in crisis can find. mn is not one of them. They are much better off using specialist mental health support. I've accessed both telephone and online support manned by mental health professionals without a delay. I haven't ever used the samaritans, but I have a friend who volunteered there and I would prefer to be in contact with a mental health professional if I need urgent advice (I have never been suicidal - I am usually in contact because I am dealing with someone who I fear for).
Having had to do the dramatic 'oh fuck they've stopped responding, have they gone and done it, or have they just fallen asleep' dash across town a number of times (and had to deal with overdoses etc), I think mnhq have a larger duty of care towards their site users in not allowing these threads to stand. it's not a sideshow, and it can go horribly wrong for both parties. we all like to think we are doing a good job and wouldn't cause additional harm, but the line is too easy to cross.

[FruitCider]

You shouldn't have deleted Claire's thread. She was talking to us and was taking on board what we were saying. She realised it was the medication making her feel this way, yet you still deleted it? Absolutely the wrong choice.

How do you know Claire was Claire?

How do you know she was taking on board what you were saying?

How do you know she truly realise the medication was making her feel that way?

[BIWI]

No, absolutely not, @Nibledbyducks !

This is a parenting forum. It's not a place to support people with serious mental health concerns or suicidal thoughts or plans.

None of us here has the right qualifications, and it's a horrible responsibility to place on MNHQ's shoulders.

They do what they can do, and they make sure that such posters have links to important sources of help, and/or telephone numbers.

We cannot, cannot and should not expect to be able to provide the appropriate kind of help to people who are suicidal.

[ButteredScone]

This isn't an acute mental health support site, though. And really, it shouldn't become one.

Mumsnet will have discussed this with charities and lawyers and established that they don't want to take on that role. Fair enough. Mumsnet can't be everything to everyone.

[Nibledbyducks]

Is it a possibility given the size and scope of mumsnet for the Samaritans or mind to have an account to communicate with suicidal poster's? Perhaps we could raise funds to aid in financial support? Or a team of mumsnetters could be given Samaritans training and operate in a similar way to nightwatch. The thread could be closed and referred to pm the relevant volunteer?

[Barbiesears]

Emailing Samaritans is worse than calling them in my experience. The reply (24 hours later) just comes across as a regurgitation of what you've told them rather than giving a feeling of support. Like a paint by numbers copy and paste of my email with "I can see that" "I understand that" etc. It made me feel worse.

I do think it's good that threads on here are deleted though. Not every one gets responses and that can make the poster feel worse. Much better to blanket delete and let people know it was them personally not being given support but everyone is treated the same. Also protects them from nasty posters or trolls that could tip them over the edge.

[ReturnOfTheMackYesItIs]

I think they should be deleted and thought that when the policy was originally discussed.

The Reddit sub makes the policy even more valid imo.

[Nancy91]

Not your fault I was too lazy to specify

[RedDogsBeg]

Nancy91 please accept my apologies.

[Nancy91]

Red I was talking about lipstick's post not the poster you are talking about

[RedDogsBeg]

Nancy91 The poster above LoverofCake said: Even the MH charities do not allow suicide posts to stand on their boards which is totally different to sending an e-mail to the Samaritans as that will not be shared for the general public to read, see or comment on.

[fleurjasmine]

I absolutely agree. I have unfortunately had firsthand experiences of some very poor Samaritans myself. And even when they are kind and helpful, ultimately they aren't a magic bullet.

[Nancy91]

I have sadly never spoken to one that helped, and if you look online many people have had bad experiences. None of that is aimed at you fleur by the way, as you say it is down to the individual that you speak to. I just wanted to open people's eyes to the truth that pointing people to the Samaritans is not the magic pill to save them from suicide or crisis. I wish it was.

[fleurjasmine]

You can, Nancy, but you will be lucky to get a reply within 2 hours.

And Samaritans are only as good or effective as the Samaritan.

[Nancy91]

To the poster above saying that mental health help isn't an online exercise, you can email the Samaritans so that argument is redundant as they are one of the mental health services you suggest leaving it to...

[Nancy91]

I'm sorry to see that others have had the same experiences as me with the Samaritans and NHS mental health provisions. It is easy to signpost people to these services but they aren't as good as people think and if I'm honest the Samaritans (at best) just repeat what you say back to you and say they understand that it is upsetting. I didn't find that helpful at all and it is hard to even get through to them in the first place. They are just normal humans that also say the wrong things sometimes.

[LipstickHandbagCoffee]

I see there’s an indignance from some of the posters who inevitably portray themselves as helpers and whist they denigrate others who recommended delete the thread as uncaring, inept etc. And whilst one may consider oneself not be the sort of person that would do nothing, a let’s fix it attitude isn’t necessarily helpful or therapeutic.

Mental health is a human endeavour, understood by tone of voice,facial expression,content of speech, knowlege about triggers,collateral from friends,family and significant others. It isn’t an online exercise.

I understand that people want to help and the IMO best help is advise to see statutory services

[fleurjasmine]

I am a Samaritan volunteer myself and while we are a worthy and very well meaning charity and I would always suggest trying us, I am the first to admit there are Samaritans and Samaritans and some aren't fantastic. The problem is, after probation volunteers are pretty much left to it - there is ongoing training, but no supervision or monitoring and I have heard 'unsuitable' shall we say things said to people.

I also think sometimes it can be quite intense talking one to one to someone. Plus, sometimes you can't get through!

I don't have answers here but I am sorry anyone has been let down by the Samaritans! I rang them myself (after checking it wasn't the branch I volunteered at!) and had someone horrible, so I do understand. It is not you!

[LoverOfCake]

How do you know she was listening? Do we even know if she was a real suicidal poster? And to the poster who said that if the one person is helped then the other 100 trolls are worth it, absolutely not. Where do you draw the line?

As for the person on the bridge, No you absolutely would not stay to talk them down if you had any sense, you would stay and call 999, and you may stay until the ambulance arrived, at which point the ambulance would take away the person and you would lose any right to know what happened to them.

Even the MH charities do not allow suicide posts to stand on their boards. So how on earth do mn'ers think they know better? Or perhaps we should accept that this is in fact more about them rather than the individual posting.

[NerrSnerr]

Dear but some of the responses were insensitive and we have no idea what could push someone who is in such distress over the edge. She was given good advice as well to call 999. MNHQ are not mental health trained and cannot assess which threads to keep or delete, it needs to be a blanket rule. I was concerned it would turn into a thread with live updates which would not be appropriate for anyone involved.

[Redglitter]

Bottom line for me is if you wouldn’t walk away from the person on the bridge, you shouldn’t walk away from them on here either

No but you and other random passers by wouldn't take it upon yourself to deal with it. You'd be straight on 999 to get the person help from the professionals who can actually help

[DearMrDilkington]

You shouldn't have deleted Claire's thread. She was talking to us and was taking on board what we were saying. She realised it was the medication making her feel this way, yet you still deleted it? Absolutely the wrong choice.

[RedDogsBeg]

Bluntness100 I have re-read the thread and discussion is not being stifled.

The only attacking I can see is coming from posters like yourself who want/wanted the thread to stand against posters who agree with MNHQ policy that the thread had to go.

Posters who have said it was right the thread had to go and given their reasons and backing to the MNHQ policy have been sneered at and accused by you, and posters who take the same view as you have/do, that they know nothing, are lacking in compassion, empathy and not as good a person as you deem yourself to be. Your post of 19th November at 21.57 (which quotes at the start a piece of a post by another poster) is an early example:

"well meaning but not helpful at all

^And there we have it folks. The one person who has proved mumsnet right, the person who attacks instead of supports.

Slow hand clap running^."

You firmly believe you are right, can/could help and should be allowed to even though this is not the advice MNHQ received from the respective MH charities.

[Bluntness100]

it seems to me that the vast majority of respondents on this thread and previous threads agree that taking the thread down is the best they can do in difficult circumstances

That’s not true, read the thread, it’s fairly evenly split, the issue now is people are being attacked and insulted for saying is should be left up, which always stifles discussion.